Extraction disaster. Need help.

[astabada]

Hi all, I'm extracting today for the first time and I'm desperately in need for help.

I got a radial extractor (I think) from the local beekeeping association. However if I spin the thing, little to no honey comes out of the frames (that I have thoroughly uncapped ). More than half of the honey is still on the bottom of the cells and doesn't apparently come out.

Since spinning faster resulted in the frames to come out of place (with two foundations destroyed) I decided to fix them to the rotating cage with a wire. Now I can spin the thing very very fast, but still no result!
Wait, in fact I dropped the plastic lid inside the extractor and brake it into pieces, if that's a result (I don't know what to say to the owner, I may open another thread on another forum, perhaps about how to properly atone).

I tried to heat up the thing with a hair drier, but the only result seems to be melted wax: not good in any way.

 

[oliver90owner]

Is this honey you are extracting liquid or solid? Extractors don't work with solid honey.

Is this Heather honey? Extractors don't work very well with the thixotropic type of honey.

Your frames should not move around appreciably. Some cages are frame size specific.

If a radial the frames will be placed like the spokes in a wheel, with the frame top bars to the outside.

Extractors are fairly simple machines and usually work well and are relatively simple to operate. The frames do need to be balanced for even running. You will need to give us a few more details for further help, I would think.

RAB

 

[plumberman]

"normal" honey will spin out as a thread at the end of the frame.if you are finding that what does come out appears as globules then a fair chance it's Heather. Major rethink required at that point.

Other possibility is crystallised honey- put a matchstick into a cell that did not extract and see whether it sticks to the matchstick or not.

Either way you may be looking at pressing if you don't just want to give it back to the bees.

 

[pbh4]

Are you sure the frames are not upside down? The cells in honeycomb slope downwards so if you do not have the top of the frame to the outside of the extractor you will leave some honey in the cells.

Paul

 

[Poly Hive]

Sorry but there is no up side or down side when it comes to extracting.


I suspect the problem is granulated honey as mentioned already.

PH

 

[MrB]

The cells in honeycomb slope downwards

Paul

mine slope upwards, if they didn't i would need my hives upside down

 

[drstitson]

the cells in combs MAY well slope slightly upwards BUT frames can only fit into extractors one way round (with top bars outermost).

 

[DarynWebb]

left side if the image is the top of the comb notice it's sloped.

 

[drstitson]

i know that all comb is sloped upwards

my point was that frames can only fit into extractors one way round (ie with the slope outwards).

all radial extractor baskets work on the same principal - having either a loop or two pegs to hold the lugs of the frames. i would imagine that trying it the other way round would be "interesting" to say the least.

 

[victor meldrew]

Sorry but there is no up side or down side when it comes to extracting.


I suspect the problem is granulated honey as mentioned already.

PH

I beg to differ
Tangential extraction requires correct frame orientation in relation to spin direction to maximise extraction
VM

 

[drstitson]

i agree that if the OP has a TANGENTIAL extractor to use then direction of rotation relative to the comb orientation WILL matter.

OP - do the frames fit the extractor like spokes of a wheel OR flat against 2 or 3 mesh sheets.

 

[astabada]

First of all I want to thank you all for your prompt answers: make me feel like I'm not alone

I've looked on the internet several extractor images, but can't really find the one I'm using. So I'll try to describe it. Anyways I think it's radial.
Inside the plastic tank there's a square cage. The bottom of the cage is shaped exactly like the iron cross. (I have really to attach a picture, which I may do only tomorrow).
The axes of the cross overlap the diagonal of the square cage base. This way the cross cuts four triangles at the square corners.
In the image attached the red dot is the spinning axis (as seen from above), where the black iron cross is the bottom of the spinning cage. In my tangential attempt I put the frame sides along the blue line, with top bars where's the blue x.
This resulted in the frames wax crumbling and passing trough the cage holes in big blocks one inch size (the size of the cage side cells).
In the radial attempt i put the top bars where the red x is, and oriented them along the red line.
This results in the frames going out of position at moderate to high speed, with results analogous to the previous ones.

As regards to honey being crystallized, I think part of it is, part is not. This is true both frame wise (whole frames with crystallized honey, whole ones with running honey) and comb wise (crystallized and running honey in different combs on the same frame).

At the moment I gave the "extracted" frames back to the hives, and I say extracted in quotation marks because half of them has more than half the honey it had originally, the other half is basically destroyed and will need new foundations.
My plan is to extract another super tomorrow. I originally planned to leave this one to the colony as winter storage, but have just given back more than half of the extracted super, so feel like they'll recover a full super out of two extracted.

Thank you again, at least I know I can't extract the crystallized ones.

 

[VEG]

Sounds like the honey is set in some of the frames. Are you using wired foundation?

 

[astabada]

First of all I want to thank you all for your prompt answers: make me feel like I'm not alone

I've looked on the internet several extractor images, but can't really find the one I'm using. So I'll try to describe it. Anyways I think it's radial.
Inside the plastic tank there's a square cage. The bottom of the cage is shaped exactly like the iron cross. (I have really to attach a picture, which I may do only tomorrow).
The axes of the cross overlap the diagonal of the square cage base. This way the cross cuts four triangles at the square corners.
In the image attached the red dot is the spinning axis (as seen from above), where the black iron cross is the bottom of the spinning cage. In my tangential attempt I put the frame sides along the blue line, with top bars where's the blue x.
This resulted in the frames wax crumbling and passing trough the cage holes in big blocks one inch size (the size of the cage side cells).
In the radial attempt i put the top bars where the red x is, and oriented them along the red line.
This results in the frames going out of position at moderate to high speed, with results analogous to the previous ones.

As regards to honey being crystallized, I think part of it is, part is not. This is true both frame wise (whole frames with crystallized honey, whole ones with running honey) and comb wise (crystallized and running honey in different combs on the same frame).

At the moment I gave the "extracted" frames back to the hives, and I say extracted in quotation marks because half of them has more than half the honey it had originally, the other half is basically destroyed and will need new foundations.
My plan is to extract another super tomorrow. I originally planned to leave this one to the colony as winter storage, but have just given back more than half of the extracted super, so feel like they'll recover a full super out of two extracted.

Thank you again, at least I know I can't extract the crystallized ones.

 

[MandF]

Sounds stupid but are/were you allowing the extractor to spin long enough at each setting before speeding it up? You need to both give the extractor long enough at slower speeds to remove the bulk of the honey, and slowly increase the speed (giving it a minute or two at each speed setting).

If you try and spin too fast too quickly, the frames are too heavy and they will break apart ("blow") at the higher speeds .

At the highest speed you leave it running until you cant see/hear honey flicking the sides of the extractor.

Sometimes you might have to moderate the highest speed you have if some frames have lots of pollen, but basically the 2 rules are, dont go too fast too quickly, and dont stop extracting until you stop seeing honey flicking the sides of the extractor.

 

[astabada]

Here are the pics of the extractor. Is this radial or tangential?

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

Tangental - in a radial arrangement the frames are arranged out from the centre like bike spokes

 

[astabada]

Sounds stupid but ... stop seeing honey flicking the sides of the extractor.

Honestly I never did this before so I didn't think about it the first time. For the second batch of frames I did exactly what you advised: it seemed just sensible.
Anyway I didn't know honey could crystallize inside combs and this caused some of my frames to remain heavy throughout the process.

I don't know if it's crystallized for any reason or it's from any particular flower.
What I know is that:
- the colony has been moved from another place when I bought it
- the crystallized honey is not dark, unlike the extracted one.

In the end I extracted about 5 litres from a national super (10 frames in total) with 4 frames foundations destroyed in the process.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

If the honey was there when you bought it then a very good chance it was OSR that wasnt taken off in time.

 

[drstitson]

i presume you acquired the hive sometime after mid-late may.
OSR honey is colour of vaseline.