Experience making own frames

[Flyboy]

Does anyone have experience making their own brood frames from scratch and letting the bees build their own foundation?
Due to me going double brood and the sudden expansion of the colonies I cannot justify the costs just to keep non-producing colonies & nucs from building wild comb from the crownboards.

Am I letting myself in for disaster by not getting wired foundation?

Any experience or views will be very welcome!

 

[Finman]

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Amount of hives 15...

To make combs without foundations is very expensive.

One box of natural combs in langstroth hive needs 15 kg honey. One box foundations saves 6-8 kg honey.

And lots of combs will ruined when bees make too much drone combs.

And no wires.... You all destroy the combs.

Then you have lots of hives. You should migrate hives to good pastures. Natural combs do not stand migrating.

But with 15 hive experience you should have knowledge what you are doing. Seems very bad.

 

[steve1958]

Top Bar Beekeepers are doing this all the time.

In my Langstroth supers I always add one frame with just a 1 inch starter strip.
The Bees draw this out as fast as the frames of new wax foundation.
It makes excellant cut comb.
Wouldnt survive spinning though

 

[oliver90owner]

You may get away without too many blown frames without wired foundation for shallow frames.

Assuming here you are using an extractor. Unwired deeps are OK if only for brood. Extra deeps need wiring.

Finman is right to comment about the cell size. Bees building comb without foundation will build larger cells for honey storage as well as more drone brood in brooding areas. If those cells get used for brooding, you could have whole frames of drones. Particularly if a queen gets above the queen excluder!

You can make your own frames from scratch, if you have skills and tools. Thinking ahead and having frames in stock for summer use (from the winter sales) is a prudent plan for any beek - particularly if you have that many.

Wired foundation is not so much more expensive than unwired. Justifying the costs should be easy. Either that or reduce your colony numbers! You are putting 0.6-0.7 kilograms of wax into a deep box. Use Finmans conversion rate, adjusted for Nationals, to work out the real costs of foundation.

You are always going to have production stocks and non-producing colonies. Organise your colonies to maintain a good proportion of productive colonies, but do think ahead.

 

[pargyle]

I've made my own frames .. you need a bandsaw/table saw ideally as it's cheaper to buy thicker timber and cut it to the thickness you want than trying to source thin timber.

I made straight sided frames with a single bottom bar. I also wire my frames to add to their rigidity.

The spacing is important and I just used domed upholstery tacks to create the frame spacing.

They can't be used with foundation as the machining required (on a small scale) is just too time consuming to make it worthwhile.

I have been buying frame seconds in the sales as there is a time element involved in making frames from scratch and my time has been limited by other influences but if you have the time and the tools to do it then it is a cost saving .. the bees don't seem to mind what you give them and will tidy up any rough bits that they don't like.

I don't accept Finman's proposition that foundationless beekeeping is a waste of money ... my bees build comb very quickly when they need it and they also build what they want. It's part of my low interference/no treatment strategy and it seems to be working.

There's a long thread about foundationless beekeeping from Tom Bick which is worth reading ...

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27494

Foundationless comb can be a bit fragile until it has been used a couple of times but once it has hardened off it's pretty tough and if you were worried about super frames being spun then a single wire across the middle of the frame should secure it.

 

[nantmoel]

Frame Making

I used to make my own frames over 20 years ago, very time consuming. I used a variety of methods, you will need a table saw and a bandsaw. I've just come back into bee keeping and have decided not to go down the route of making my own frames.

 

[philipm]

Been making them for years now Normally when I cut down wood for the fire in the autumn I leave a few lengths of wood to dry in the shed mainly Sycamore .I then saw them into planks the following year and cut down for the top rails and side bars. I put a starter strip in the frames and reinforce them with fishing line. Time consuming I know but better than sitting watching the rubbish on TV on a winters night or when its raining.

 

[flytrapman]

2nds DN4 frames in packs of 50 can be bought for £30, is it really worth the time and hassle of sourcing the timber and making them

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

picked some up at the maisie's sale yesterday £28.00 for 50 Hoffman frames - £25.00 for standards - no brainer really

 

[Finman]

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I made myself 20 years my frames. I know what it is . Here frames are 50 cents. Not worth to do.

Boiling old frames in lye water is good job too. It takes 2 hours to clean 100 frames. If old wires are in frames, that I nice too.

Pargyle, loss of money is very well documented in research 30 years ago in Canada in professional beekeeping. The loss is huge, when you count it as netto. No need to invent it again.

 

[pargyle]

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Pargyle, loss of money is very well documented in research 30 years ago in Canada in professional beekeeping. The loss is huge, when you count it as netto. No need to invent it again.

You need to get up to date Finman ...

Once the comb is built it is there for a long time ... so it's only a 'one time' hit.

If I eventually have enough of my bees own wax to make it feasible I will make my own foundation sheets .. In the meantime I prefer to know what goes into my hives and if my bees bring it in I trust their judgement.

Your concentration on honey cropping is not always everyone else's priority.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

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Pargyle, loss of money is very well documented in research 30 years ago

Wasn't there some old fool on here a while ago stating that any research that old wasn't worth listening to?

 

[Finman]

You need to get up to date Finman ...

Once the comb is built it is there for a long time ... so it's only a 'one time' hit.

If I eventually have enough of my bees own wax to make it feasible I will make my own foundation sheets .. In the meantime I prefer to know what goes into my hives and if my bees bring it in I trust their judgement.

Your concentration on honey cropping is not always everyone else's priority.

Date what? Consumption of honey/wax kilo.... How much it is nowadays. Tell me the updated knowledge and show the link from where you got it.

Like nutrition of honeybees. It was published 1953 and it is still the same.



Pargyle, you do everything and you know everything with 2 years experience.

I date my knowledge when it can be dated. Pargyle, I beat you in every aspect of beekeeping knowledge. Do not remind me what I should do with your be patient and let it be advices.

 

[Finman]

You need to get up to date Finman ...

Once the comb is built it is there for a long time ... so it's only a 'one time' hit.

.

You have not much experience about that? Do you?

What is "long time"

Once I made unwired super frames 100 pieces, and after 2 years they were all broken by extraction.


How many frames you renew in your hives?
I renew about 400/year .

Every new hive needs 60 foundations. Every AS needs 10-20 foundations
.

 

[pargyle]

ZZZZZZZZ ZZZZ ZZZZ ZZ zzzzzzz

Yeh ... Heard it all before Finny ... One hive owner, knows nothing, 50 years of doing the same things trumps everything ?

 

[Finman]

Your concentration on honey cropping is not always everyone else's priority.

How much you extracted honey from your hives last summer? It was good year in UK
Your beekeeping advices are very expensive to execute. I know that very well.

 

[Finman]

Please, Pargyle, answer few question...

- how much bees consume honey to make 1 kg wax
- how many kg wax is needed to draw combs to the langstroth box without foundations

- how many frames your hives draw/year

- how much beehive has drone combs in wild nest in nature, %

 

[Flyboy]

Thank you very much for all the views which helps me to consider my situation! For my circumstances it would work to keep my nuc's and expanding colonies happy with self-made frames and get manufactured ones for the producing big colonies. I have put the old queens in nucs after their colonies was AS as insurance, so decided they can build their own comb.
Thanks again!

 

[Finman]

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Please Pargyle! Updated answers, please.

 

[bingevader]

Am I letting myself in for disaster by not getting wired foundation?

Any experience or views will be very welcome!

If woodwork is a particular hobby of yours and you have a very cheap or free supply of wood, then why not.
Otherwise, as people have stated, it's probably not worth it.

On the foundation front, that's up to you.
You will take a hit in honey production and you need to think about how honey will be extracted unless you are going to use it for cut comb.
But you can reinforce the frames with horizontal wires or lolly pop sticks.
Obviously, these will require a bit more time and effort to construct.