Evolution

[Finman]

Or 'Beauty is in the eye of the Beer holder' ....Hic....

If somebody arranges beauty to the eye

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[Finman]

"Yes, if AMM are really better bees than other strains."

:

Englishmen brought first to every continent AMM. No continent use it any more in honey production.

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[blackcavebees]

Englishmen brought first to every continent AMM. No continent use it any more in honey production.

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Is that natural or un-natural selection?

 

[rayz_x]

I believe that's 'artificial selection'.

Are there any honeybees not been artificially selected in some way?

Ray

 

[mbc]

I believe that's 'artificial selection'.

Are there any honeybees not been artificially selected in some way?

Ray

I would have thought that the migratory bees in the himalayas and parts of Africa would have mostly escaped any artificial selection.

 

[Finman]

Is that natural or un-natural selection?

Market forces

Natural selection happens when the beekeeper is old enough, or wife wants to split the property


Artificial selection, yes it is. Artificial insemination has just the core of selection.
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[Suzi Q]

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I'm a huge fan of Darwin, the man was a genius. To me evolution seems so obviously one of the great driving forces of the world around us, like gravity (except that I understand evolution!), and although I know there are people who don't believe in it, it comes as a shock to come across the reality.

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[Bob Bee]

Englishmen brought first to every continent AMM. No continent use it any more in honey production.

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Big pinch of salt, language and definitions apart, there is plenty of honey production going on with AMM across the Northern Hemisphere and probably elsewhere.

 

[Finman]

Big pinch of salt, language and definitions apart, there is plenty of honey production going on with AMM across the Northern Hemisphere and probably elsewhere.

I know Norway's heather honey production but not more.

Northern hemisphere, what do you mean, where are borders.

In my country Italians and Carniolans are on Polar Circle but not a single AMM.

Russia?

Canada?

 

[Norton]

Maybe it was a dream.

 

[Hivemaker.]

No continent use it any more in honey production.
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Thank the Lord for that.

 

[PBee]

Thank the Lord for that.

Lord had nothing to do with it - it was the prophet Br. Adam .... peace be upon him.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Lord had nothing to do with it - it was the prophet Br. Adam .... peace be upon him.

Of course, and i have to agree with you on this one. The master of evolution.

 

[PBee]

Of course, and i have to agree with you on this one. The master of evolution.

Evolution is just an R away from revolution ....

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Oh dear x 10
Bottom line is our human ego is often much bigger than our understanding. Science has come a long way, but still is far far from knowing everything. 500 years ago most scientists held to a Geocentric model of the universe until Copernicus came along (although some astrophysicists tried to float it again in 2010 ), 400 years ago they worked out that the heart was the centre of the human circulatory system, Doctors didn't wash their hands after surgery until 150 years ago - they thought gangrene and infection came from bad air. The double helix DNA model was only published 60 years ago, There is so much we don't know, yet! I personally find it arrogant at best when folks are so definitive about subjects that we really know little about. I am a Christian, I believe the Bible, and I read it. I have no trouble accepting it's teaching. It says that Christ died for my sins. It doesn't say that the earth is 6000 years old or 4.5 billion years old, men say that. If we are going to take a definitive view, we need to be sure of our footing as in 50 years we might have serious egg on our faces, depending how science develops. I have some some serious misgivings about evolution as it is packaged and rammed down our throats and the way anyone who questions the party line is a nut job or a religious zealot isn't helpful. Gaps in the fossil record at least should caution us from defending an absolute position, for we may live to find out that the earth is indeed not flat nor the centre of the universe.

Trouble is that there are dogmatic people on both sides of the argument. Like blackcavebees I believe in God and am a Christian - I'm not a creationist but I believe we were created. I also believe in some kind of evoloution.
Someone once said to me that the Boeing 747 evolved since the first one yes, but it didn't do it itself - it had a helping hand
I too am out of this debate - and I don't know how my bees are 'cos I'm stuck in Dartmouth paying marina prices for my internet access cos my dongle's thrown it's hand in!! But I'm sure the bees will be fine 'til I get home Tuesday

 

[tonybloke]

this guy tells it how it actually, really, is!



http://youtu.be/vX1CvW38cHA

 

[Finman]

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What I have read in these days about human evolution is gene mapping.

Human gene map was finished 2003
Australian aborginal gene map was ready 2011


What they found out:

- Detailed analysis of the Aborigine's genetic blueprint - his genome - by an international team on several continents supports the theory that humans migrated from Africa into eastern Asia in multiple waves, contrary to the theory of a single out-of-Africa migration wave.

- The first Aboriginal genome reinforces archeological evidence that people arrived on the Australian continent at least 50,000 years ago and that they share one of the oldest continuous cultures in the world.

- Dingo dog arrived 5,000 years ago with some humans

- Human waves of immigrants moved into the Middle East and onwards, they swapped genes with archaic people such as the Neanderthals and the Denisovans, and with one another.
- Denisova is unknown human species, and we know only a finger bone from Chinese cave.


- Aborginal people wandered to America and reached the tip of south xx 000 years ago.
- Aborginal people were still living in south 70 years ago "luckily" diseases killed them.
- Same origin people have lived up to these days along Californian bay.

- America was inhabited in 5 human waves (the 5 th Europeans)

http://www.andaman.org/BOOK/chapter54/text-Fuego/Genetics/text-FuegianGenetics.htm

 

[Finman]

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wiki:A tooth and toe bone belonging to different members of the same population have since been found.

Analysis of the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of the finger bone showed it to be genetically distinct from the mtDNAs of Neanderthals and modern humans.[4] Subsequent study of the nuclear genome from this specimen suggests this group shares a common origin with Neanderthals, they ranged from Siberia to Southeast Asia, and they lived among and interbred with the ancestors of some present-day modern humans, with up to 6% of the DNA of Melanesians and Australian Aborigines deriving from Denisovans.[5][6] Similar analysis of a toe bone discovered in 2011 is underway.[7]

 

[Finman]

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NO stone on stone after honeybee gene mapping

BEFORE

It is not long time ago when it was thinked that mellifera developed in Europe awhen Europe was tropic. The achestor was mellifera mellifera and other races and even cerana has bees evoluted from mellifera.

"Like the stingless bees, honey bees first evolved in tropical conditions. The fossil record shows that at the time the area of land that is now Europe had a tropical climate. As the climate became cooler the open nesting types would not have been able to survive except by migrating to the tropical region of Southern Asia. For the greater part of the Tertiary era Africa was isolated from Europe by sea and no Tertiary types of honey bee reached Africa even after a land bridge was established. It is likely that the development of advanced thermal homeostasis in honey bees which permitted the occupation of cool temperate zones therefore occurred in Southern Asia, possibly in the Himalayan region. Once established, the cavity nesting cerana/mellifera type would spread East and West, eventually occupying both tropic and cool temperate zones. "

This is text from BIBBA, bee breeder assosiation. Ashleigh Milner BIBBA 1996.
Edited by Roger Patterson 2011.

AFTER MAPPING

Mapping of honeybee started at the end of 2002. Mappinf took one year. Map was in hands in January 2005.

what they found:

Genes from African Apis scutellata
have largely replaced many genes from one
previously dominant subspecies of honeybee,
A. mellifera ligustica (the “Italian bee”), while A. m.
mellifera (the “German black bee”) genes have
been essentially unchanged. It will be fascinating
to learn why these two subspecies show different
“susceptibilities” to Africanization, and what
this might mean for the genetics of aggressive
behavior.

Mellifera mellifera was almost African. It has leaved continent via Gibraltar in last expancion wave to Europe.

Ligustica type like Carniolans arrived to Europe first.
Africa is a nest of Apis melleifera family but original home is in Asia becaus e other members of Apis live in Asia.

Killerbee evolution in America

It was thought before that killer bee nature will become milder when they cross it with "tame" honey bee.
Now they have found that crossings happens but killerbee workers emerges 4 days elier and crossing 2 days earlier than mellifera.
Who queen has original African genes, it emerges first and kill other virgins.

It has been found too that Scutellata queens have been trasported directly to America by beekeepers. Those genes have neve seen South America.

 

[Finman]

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My opinion about anti varroa beestock in Arizona

This not science but.....

Mite resistant bee stock has been in AZ area for long time.
Researchers have not researched that "ready solution against varroa".
USA is full of universities? How is this possible???

One professional guy wrote in American beeforum that those bees are tame scutellata form.

That fits to pig picture. University guys know that AZ bees are scutellata origin, but they cannot say it to public that American beekeepers transport killer bees along USA. That would be a catastrophy of beekeeping industry and pollination dependent industry.

How is it? Anti varroa bees stock has know 10 years and universities are silent. Why?

When the other world breed anti varroa bees, they do not want genes from America. Are they afraid that killes bee genes slip to their continent.

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Dee Lusby have known solution 20 years.... but why varroa is the worst nuisance in USA

"The Lusbys found that comb cell diameter differs among the various sources of foundation manufactured in the United States and around the world. Following publication of this discovery in 1990, they undertook an all out effort to resolve the question of optimal natural cell diameter and its potential impact on colony vigor."