Emergency Queen Cell question

[Courty]

Hi,
If a frame with new eggs and various brood stages is placed in a queenless hive, which options do bees choose to make a new queen? Do they feed a three day old larva with a few more days of Royal jelly, or go with a new egg, or something I between?

I ask because I added such a frame 11 days ago to a colony that had failed to make a new queen after the original swarmed. 3 days later there were queen cells started on the frame. I didn’t count them or look too closely, I didn’t want to disturb anything.

My plan was to leave the bees alone and trust they would make a queen which would hopefully mate successfully.

However, having done some research the bees may run a sequence of caste swarms possibly leaving me queenless again.

Tomorrow is 10 days after I put the frame in. If the bees chose a 3 day old larva then she will be hatching tomorrow. So maybe it wouldn’t be a good idea to go into the hive and reduce the queen cells.

I am tempted to leave them to it in case I disturb an emerging queen. Is this the best option?

Thanks

Courty

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Leave them to it - sometimes we tend to overthink the situation - the bees will chose the best larva for the job. Judging by your explanation the bees - now reduced in numbers and ageing fast, would be reluctant to swarm again

 

[ShinySideUp]

But of course, there's no guarantee

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

But of course, there's no guarantee

As Manley said (quoting an earlier beekeeper) - 'Bees do nothing invariably'

 

[Courty]

So, 33 days after I put eggs in the Q- hive and I inspected today. No eggs, all the signs of a colony waiting for a queen, polished cells, nothing in them.

Still plenty of drones in all the hives, do I go for another frame with eggs in, or reunite with the swarm that left this colony and create a double brood for winter?
They are Carnolians so should be a busy lot.

I will give them another week or so to check, maybe there is a new queen taking her time?

Has this been a poor year for mating queens?

Thanks

Courty

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Patience - nowhere near 'too late' by the timeline you've given, the last month or so has been very good for mating queens

 

[Beefriendly]

the last month or so has been very good for mating queens

In my part of North Yorkshire it hasn't been very good at all. Severe rain and winds have, shall we say, made getting any queens mated difficult.
As poster is in Sheffield they may have had different weather to me and you in Wales.

 

[Courty]

The weather around the likely mating flight window was mixed, a lot of heavy rain and wind with the odd sunny spell.
This is my first season with splits and swarms, so far the first split failed with a drone laying queen, and from two swarmed hives, one appears to have produced a healthy queen and the other is the one I am patiently waiting to see what will happen. It’s had two attempts now after the original queen left.

Exciting times!

Courty

 

[Poly Hive]

First of all the weather is very local this year seemingly far more so than normal. Up here there is only one word for it and that is "merdre".

So a colony may well swarm it's self to death with cast after cast leaving but you can bet that after all of that there will be a virgin left in the hive.

PH

 

[Courty]

Update

Hopelessly queenless I’m afraid, no eggs, no brood, a dwindled colony with that high pitched whine when I inspected today.
And several old queen cells, they must have found somewhere else.

I’ll reunite them with the main swarm that left them, fortunately I caught it.
As the weaker colony it will go on top with the newspaper method. It’s in a wooden brood box, where all my other hive equipment is poly because I needed
one in a rush.

When it is united, I’d prefer the poly brood box of the main colony to be uppermost, as I believe the insulation to be better with heat rising and all that.
I presume once they have all made friends and settled down I could switch the boxes round without causing them any major problems?

Courty

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Hopelessly queenless I’m afraid, no eggs, no brood, a dwindled colony with that high pitched whine when I inspected today.
And several old queen cells, they must have found somewhere else.

I’ll reunite them with the main swarm that left them, fortunately I caught it.
As the weaker colony it will go on top with the newspaper method. It’s in a wooden brood box, where all my other hive equipment is poly because I needed
one in a rush.

When it is united, I’d prefer the poly brood box of the main colony to be uppermost, as I believe the insulation to be better with heat rising and all that.
I presume once they have all made friends and settled down I could switch the boxes round without causing them any major problems?

Courty

Doesn't matter which way around you place the colonies to be united - just put whichever colony that is to be moved on top. As for boxes, do you need to keep both on once you've completed the unite?
Just put a queen excluder over the newspaper, once the unite is complete, just consolidate the best/brooded frames into one box then take the wooden one away.

 

[Courty]

Thank you, I thought best practise was for the stronger colony to be on top.
I would be able to condense both boxes into one, neither colony has pulled out all the frames, they both came from one nuc in July.

Courty

 

[Erichalfbee]

It doesn't matter, really
It's useful to have the queen you are keeping on the bottom then you know where she is when you are consolidating into one brood box.
If there is a marked disparity in size and the weakest one has the queen I tend to put her on top where she is safest.

 

[beeno]

I prefer to keep the Q+ where it is and move Q- on top. Less disturbance for the Q+ which can continue foraging with the new bees on top dribbling down slowly. Seem logical to me, but hey ho perhaps total chaos is beneficial for a unite!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Seem logical to me, but hey ho perhaps total chaos is beneficial for a unite!

#
#
Explain? Or maybe your definition of logic is different

 

[Erichalfbee]

I prefer to keep the Q+ where it is and move Q- on top. Less disturbance for the Q+ which can continue foraging with the new bees on top dribbling down slowly.

In my experience the newspaper is breached in a matter of hours and the colony well mingled before the foragers are out the next morning

 

[beeno]

#
#
Explain? Or maybe your definition of logic is different

Thought I had actually!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The majority of unites I do entails moving/introducing a Q+ colony to a queenless colony which I plan to remain in situ, the easiest and most logical way to do this is to place the 'donor' colony on top of the queenless one. No fuss, never witnessed any of this 'total chaos' just a calm and ordered unite.

But as 'chaos' has been mentioned, isn't it a known fact that dumping bees from more than two colonies into one box can be done without any attempt at gently uniting using newspaper, air freshener or magic fairy dust as the confusion caused just aids them all to settle down pecfully together.

 

[beeno]

In my experience the newspaper is breached in a matter of hours and the colony well mingled before the foragers are out the next morning

Can't say that has been my experience. On one occasion I rearranged frames after 7 days and noticed a bunch of approx 200 bees still in the top box. They all got chased out of the hive and clumps of fighting bees ended up in the yew tree next to the hive. Apparently it is easier to unite in the spring, but most of my unites admittedly is in the autumn. Perhaps that explains the differences in our experiences.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Maybe you are using too robust a paper
Two sheets of the Westmorland Gazzette under a QX do me.