Dowsing

[greatbritishhoney]

Philosophy is for really hard thinkers who never actually achieve anything physical

Couldn't be further from the truth IMO. Philosophy can be described as man's quest to understand himself and the world about him. Understanding generally leads to physical action.
Ancient philosophy is the bedrock of modern science and technology. For example, most of the greek philosophers were also "scientists", astronomers, mathematicians, doctors etc.
Although, I will admit that Philosophy is currently seen by some as being slightly irrelevant due to the massive advances in physics. My personal opinion is that philosophy is still extremely relevant to the modern world, as mainstream science tends not to be very good at linking scientific endeavour to the human experience. Philosophy is the tool that helps us understand what science actually means to us on a human level. Many modern scientists are also excellent philosophers (although you'd rarely hear them admit to it!).

 

[Brosville]

Here's a broader example - http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/infection-surge-raises-doubts-over-gates-plan-to-beat-malaria-2339634.html - there's bags of science involved there, presumably most/all "good" science, but it shows that somewhere, somebody didn't ask ALL of the questions, or the right ones..........

 

[The Apprentices]

When I was at school we were taught that the bumblebee couldn't fly, because aerodynamically, it was impossible - so the bumblebee shrugged it's shoulders and carried on flying regardless..........
Science is a tool, and in the right hands can do wonderful things, sadly, many people worship it as some sort of absolute source of truth - science is only as good as the questions asked of it, and the ability to ask ALL the right questions requires a deep understanding of the subject - often things are held up as being "proved (or disproved) by science", when in fact it has done nothing of the sort, just one of many questions may have given the "answer" desired, but neglected all the other experiments that need to be done to give the whole picture....
We have become very used to the abuse and misrepresentation of science by commerce, and we should be very careful to confirm that we can interpret what is giving a true picture, and what is "spin" - if you want a recent example, a few years ago a company called Swindlesave had a very clever ad campaign telling people that roof-mounted wind turbines would give them 30% of their electricity in a typical urban area, and cited such things as Betz' Law, and muttered about "Weibull Distributions", all designed to bamboozle a gullible public - this reached into the very heart of government, and at one time you could even get a grant on the damn things - teensie problemette, they just plain didn't work - they'd cited lots of "science", but overlooked the fact they'd need to have overturned several immutable laws of physics to "do what they said in the tin".......... (the windspeed and turbulence near a roof precludes it - if the power isn't there, you can't take it out!)

Good post and on the Whole very true.

Any monoanything is destined to fail where as the multi skilled and time indentured students of life are normally those who iron out the chaff and get the jobs done.

For many decades now the dooers have been doing and learning very little manual and the think tanks are on overtime, there is a Roman model of old existing today where circuses and free bread were sent out to distract the populous as is today with the X factor and electronic debt as their empire was starting to crumble.

On the free energy front, the real law of physics has been telling us for years that, energy cannot be made nor destroyed, only converted from one type into another.

During the second world war it was found that 8 Cycles per second produces what was termed as the death wave, which in time can destroy buildings, many of the wind turbines close to buildings are actually doing this today and droving some to desperation.

Also when the weather is at both extremes of hot or cold there is little to no wind present.

All of these facts and figures are recorded such.

 

[Drew]

When I was at school we were taught that the bumblebee couldn't fly, because aerodynamically, it was impossible - so the bumblebee shrugged it's shoulders and carried on flying regardless..........

Unless you had an awful teacher (or you misunderstood the point of the lesson) thats not what the teacher was attempting to teach you!

The "(Lack of) Flight of the Bumble Bee" - is normally used as an example to teach (budding) scientists to question and challenge issues with an open mind!!

(Basic and simple) Aerodynamics appears to show that a Bumble Bee cannot fly (because the lift that could be generated by the little wings couldn't lift the massive body without a hurricane windspeed - or some such).
BUT and this is the important bit for a scientist... Bumble Bees CAN fly therefore
a) as a Bumble Bee can fly (observable and repeatable)
b) as the (basic & simple) rules of aerodynamics work (reliably reproducible)
c) There must be "some other" rules that explain it!!

It starts "A" is true... "A" is not explained by "B" therefore we need to investigate in order to explain.

The main point (of the "scientists") through this thread is that Dowsing does not satisfy "A" as it cannot be reliably observed of proved therefore "B" isn't challenged......

I think the Bumble Bee thing is supposed to come from a sceptic (of science) trying to be clever with a drunken scientist....
Bumble Bees fly "like" helicopters not "like" fixed wing planes (which is what basic/simple aerodynamics covers)

 

[The Apprentices]

Couldn't be further from the truth IMO. Philosophy can be described as man's quest to understand himself and the world about him. Understanding generally leads to physical action.
Ancient philosophy is the bedrock of modern science and technology. For example, most of the greek philosophers were also "scientists", astronomers, mathematicians, doctors etc.
Although, I will admit that Philosophy is currently seen by some as being slightly irrelevant due to the massive advances in physics. My personal opinion is that philosophy is still extremely relevant to the modern world, as mainstream science tends not to be very good at linking scientific endeavour to the human experience. Philosophy is the tool that helps us understand what science actually means to us on a human level. Many modern scientists are also excellent philosophers (although you'd rarely hear them admit to it!).

My signature says a lot about philosophers and workers, one first observed the other doing things and they themselves learned, its a bit like the chicken and egg scenario.

When everything goes pear shaped is when the people doing the pure thinking think they know how everything works without actually doing it themselves.

The story of your enslavement, on youtube explains things in laymems terms.

I hanker back to a time at school when our head mistress said, When you all leave school I want all of you to be like me,,, I went home and told my father and grandfather what she said to us,, thet told me to tell her, here we can and do things differently.

 

[MandF]

The sticks or wires are mearly pointers but its the person who asks the questions not the antler of piece of wood in their hands.
We today as did the ancients know that the energy lines exist, they can be see in the skies and on a compass.

This doesnt alter the premise of what I said.

The apple dropping is the test of whether gravity makes things drop. It will drop every time.

The rods moving (in the hands of a "dowser") is the test of whether a dowser can find water. They cannot reliably/consistently do so, the large test/experiment proved this. They find water no better than random, which would suggest when they DO find water (out in the field), it is just luck, or the person holding the sticks is finding water some other way, subconsciously or otherwise. Which is why they cannot do it when all these other cues are removed (like the lay of the land, vegetation or whatever).

Regardless of ANYTHING else to do with science and nature and what man does or does not know. This thread is about whether dowsing works, and it has been proven that it doesnt.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

My signature says a lot about philosophers and workers, one first observed the other doing things and they themselves learned, its a bit like the chicken and egg scenario.

When everything goes pear shaped is when the people doing the pure thinking think they know how everything works without actually doing it themselves.

The story of your enslavement, on youtube explains things in laymems terms.

I hanker back to a time at school when our head mistress said, When you all leave school I want all of you to be like me,,, I went home and told my father and grandfather what she said to us,, thet told me to tell her, here we can and do things differently.

I hear what you are saying. But, I think you may be making a bit of an assumption about scientists and philosophers. They are rarely people who sit in closed rooms and ponder over books and then issue pronouncements for the masses to blindly follow. In reality, most of them are ordinary people learning and discovering for themselves through practical experiment, often in the workplace.
I think you might be making a distinction that doesn't really exist.
Archimedes got into the bath himself - he wasn't watching someone else.
Or was he?

 

[Nose Ma]

Sadly the bumblebee thing is an urban myth:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1076/is-it-aerodynamically-impossible-for-bumblebees-to-fly

In short – you could not make a glider like a bee, but you could make a helicopter like one. Wings beating fast gives the lift.

This is the point of science – you have a hypothesis, you go and test it. A hypothesis is “my equation says bees cannot fly”. So you test it. Oh, look bees can fly. Does this mean my equation was wrong, or am I being deceived by the bee. In this case, it’s the equation. So I go away and rethink the equation. I try again.

I agree in every way about the misrepresentation of science, and all that is scientific. To open another pot of worms, just look at the coverage of Fukushima by the media. “oh no” they say “it’s radiation. You will all die. Godzilla will raise from the depths.”. It turns out that nobody died from radiation (there were deaths from the earthquake directly), nobody will die, and a larger problem was a massive earthquake and tsunami that destroyed most of the country’s infrastructure. For some reason that was relegated to a minor issue. They also missed that four poor souls were killed by collapsing dams, making hydro power much more dangerous. “It’s like Three Mile Island all over again” they screamed “it will be the China Syndrome”. Oddly enough, it was just like TMI. There was no (technically impossible) China Syndrome at TMI. Nobody died at TMI from radiation. Nobody will die. There hasn’t even been an increase in cancer rates. It’s expensive, I will grant you, but not as dangerous as the press made out.

Your windmill example really winds me up (no pun) for exactly the way you have stated it. We seem to have lost track of how to educate people with a bit of science savvy and scepticism. This is not helped by the media showing these things wrongly, or giving undue weight to unscientific rubbish about science matters. When I was a kid (here we go) Horizon was a Hard Programme to understand. It dealt with really difficult topics, but presented them very well. By sensible scientists in brown suits and kipper ties. Now it seems to be about some minor celeb tarting around with thermometers. It taught me nothing, but left me thinking in a few places “why don’t they explain that, or tell me what it is” rather than racing off to blow something else up. I don’t need a long shot of Brian Cox on a mountain to explain to me that the universe is quite big.

Also, have you noticed how something good, such as a new clever medical procedure is done by Doctors, whereas something benign or potentially dangerous is done by scientists? I would hazard a guess all of them have PhDs, a fair few of both will be professors.

 

[tonybloke]

This doesnt alter the premise of what I said.

The apple dropping is the test of whether gravity makes things drop. It will drop every time.

you really don't understand probability theory, do you?

Regardless of ANYTHING else to do with science and nature and what man does or does not know. This thread is about whether dowsing works, and it has been proven that it doesnt.

until you test every single or married) person on the planet, you cannot state this as fact.

try reading the book 'bad science'

and use a spell-checker, please!

rgds, Tony the Skeptic ( great fan of Diogenes Laertius)

 

[Brosville]

I'm not a sceptic of science, but I am very sceptical of the misuse and abuse of it's interpretation, particularly by commercial interests, and as I've said, the inability to ask the right questions, ask all of the questions necessary, then having the ability to interpret those results in a meaningful way...

Another example has just arisen - this "8 cycles death wave" thing - it contains some truth - yes, this is the sort of vibrational frequency that CAN be dangerous - from memory, the US government tried making "death ray whistles" giving out such vibrations, but they proved as dangerous for the operators as their targets. I don't dismiss the fact that it is just possible that a large turbine could produce them, but this sort of thing is well understood, would probably only emanate from a very particular size and design, and could easily be "designed out" - there have been examples of bad and inconsiderate siting, and operators who've failed to address local concerns which have all added fuel to the fire (intentional pun) of the "anti-wind brigade" (funded by Exxon amongst others). It is plain daft to attempt to extrapolate one set of results as being applicable to other "similar" things.
(In simple terms, building mounted turbines don't produce enough to be worthwhile, "big wind" works extremely well if correctly sited)

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Nose Ma, I think "nobody will die" at Fukushima is a statemen that probably goes against what you have previously said about certainty.
Channel 4 news had night had a report suggesting that the emergency workers at the plant were routinely taking off their protective masks and potentially being exposed to radiation.
I get your point, but "nobody will die" is a bit of a stab in the dark IMO.

I also agree with you a bit about the Brian Cox thing but, the point is that if Brian Cox enthuses 1000 kids about physics and they go on to study it at A level / degree then that will be for the general good of science.

 

[oliver90owner]

'Goggle' Takoma bridge - the one that failed at a certain wind speed and watch the video clips.

There has been a more recent one too, but cannot remember it - 'goggle' can likely find it. Was not at 8 Hertz though, IIRC.

The frequency can be unimportant, it's the amount of energy absorbed due to the 'ringing' effect that eventually destroys the structure.

RAB

 

[Brosville]

I'd agree - there's a lot of effort being put into glossing over the very obvious damage/danger from the Japanese meltdown - often these days if you want the real truth you're better off working out the money trail, and who's spinning what, and for what motivations....... (I'm adamantly "anti-nuke" for perfectly sound reasons, and very sceptical of the spinning going on in it's favour)

 

[Storm™]

Lol teachers - sigh. 

I was kept in detention because I brought in to school some whales teeth. The teacher asked what they were and I explained my grandad was an engineer on the whalers in the 20's. What's that got to do with the cow horns you have there. No I said these are whales teeth. NO they are cow horns don't tell lies. I assured her they were nothing to do with cows. Angrier and angrier she became until she stood there and told everyone I was a naught liar and that I would be held in detention. And so it was. 

Everyone there now believed as she said that whales do not have teeth. They have matts of hairs. And some of them despite documentaries may well still believe it. Who knows the point being that she was the voice of authority in a position of power and she has or had tainted truth with her rubbish. Hmmm who does that sound like. 

I read on the net other zealots claiming the universe holds no other life but ours because science says our goldilocks universe is unique yet they cannot say where the universe ends. If it ends. 

That we did not go to the moon despite being able to fire a laser at a mirror module on it's surface and getting a reflection back from it. 

That the smallest particle was the atom until someone split it. 

Blood is not red it's blue. It only turns red instantly when it is exposed to air and this is part of the oxidation effect. (wtf - so teacher - what about when you give a sample of blood into a vaccutaner. - teacher "oh shut up". 

That there is no life on mars - no wait - no it's ok we were correct dead as a dodo, no wait - no phew it's ok we're right it is dead - oh ffs hang on it may have bacteria - no it's cool we were right after all and besides life needs water and there is none. Well none that's liquid - what they found some liquid. Farse. 

Science is great. But 1000 scientists can agree on a theory and 2000 say it's rubbish and so it's rubbish until more come in and say it's not. And so a see saw effect happens until everyone agrees. That's not fact. That's best guess based on evidence at hand. So scuse me if I take your rant and frustration with a pinch of salt. I'll give it a few years and science will say i am actually an alien made of stardust and bacteria lol and that in all probability I arrived on a meteor from a universe that has no other life in it - no wait.

 

[The Apprentices]

I hear what you are saying. But, I think you may be making a bit of an assumption about scientists and philosophers. They are rarely people who sit in closed rooms and ponder over books and then issue pronouncements for the masses to blindly follow. In reality, most of them are ordinary people learning and discovering for themselves through practical experiment, often in the workplace.
I think you might be making a distinction that doesn't really exist.
Archimedes got into the bath himself - he wasn't watching someone else.
Or was he?

I' not going to argue with anything you said, but thinking and not doing doesn't work.

Books are for recording things after the event and how others can be controlled by those who wrote them when others read them afterwards.

Please forgive me if I appear to ramble, but nature rarely reads books and manages to get by, I am part of nature and not what the philosophers words in book says we are, those do not matter to me.

I am a man for my own working day a student of life who likes to get what he wants by using his own hands without wasting anyone elses time or asking them to do it for me for nothing.

Today I will mostly be making a Brother Adam feeder.

Thus is my philosophical and political compass.

 

[Nose Ma]

Nose Ma, I think "nobody will die" at Fukushima is a statemen that probably goes against what you have previously said about certainty.
<snip>
I also agree with you a bit about the Brian Cox thing but, the point is that if Brian Cox enthuses 1000 kids about physics and they go on to study it at A level / degree then that will be for the general good of science.

Good points on both of these, they are indeed correct.

On the latter, I note that the new batch of A level passes makes today's kids 30% smarter than I was, so surely we can make TV 30% more difficult too!

 

[Brosville]

"I note that the new batch of A level passes makes today's kids 30% smarter than I was" - yet for some odd reason, 44% of graduates need basic literacy training, and most couldn't pass a 1950's "11-plus" exam, let alone find their own backsides without satnav............

 

[The Apprentices]

Lol teachers - sigh.

I was kept in detention because I brought in to school some whales teeth. The teacher asked what they were and I explained my grandad was an engineer on the whalers in the 20's. What's that got to do with the cow horns you have there. No I said these are whales teeth. NO they are cow horns don't tell lies. I assured her they were nothing to do with cows. Angrier and angrier she became until she stood there and told everyone I was a naught liar and that I would be held in detention. And so it was.

Everyone there now believed as she said that whales do not have teeth. They have matts of hairs. And some of them despite documentaries may well still believe it. Who knows the point being that she was the voice of authority in a position of power and she has or had tainted truth with her rubbish. Hmmm who dies that sound like.

I read on the net other zealots claiming the universe holds no other life but ours because science says our goldilocks universe is unique yet they cannot say where the universe ends. If it ends.

That we did not go to the moon despite being able to fire a laser at a mirror module on it's surface and getting a reflection back from it.

That the smallest particle was the atom until someone split it.

Blood is not red it's blue. It only turns red instantly when it is exposed to air and this is part of the oxidation effect. (wtf - so teacher - what about when you give a sample of blood into a vaccutaner. - teacher "oh shut up".

That there is no life on mars - no wait - no it's ok we were correct dead as a dodo, no wait - no phew it's ok we're right it is dead - oh ffs hang on it may have bacteria - no it's cool we were right after all and besides life needs water and there is none. Well none that's liquid - what they found some liquid. Farse.

Science is great. But 1000 scientists can agree on a theory and 2000 say it's rubbish and so it's rubbish until more come in and say it's not. And so a see saw effect happens until everyone agrees. That's not fact. That's best guess based on evidence at hand. So scuse me if I take your rant and frustration with a pinch of salt. I'll give it a few years and science will say i am actually an alien made of stardust and bacteria lol - no wait.

How does that song go, ahh yes.

We're busy going nowhere working the whole day through, trying to find lots of things not to do---------- we like to be unhappy but we never do have the time.

A great leveller, watch it on youtube.

Institutionalisation breeds job for the boys who make up things like global warming LOL.

We really would be in trouble if this system was working properly would'nt we.

 

[Brosville]

"who make up things like global warming" - just for one ghastly acid-flash moment imagine that statement were correct - it makes not a jot or tittle difference if the globe is warming, cooling, or doing a rhumba, there are too many people, doing "too much stuff", so the remedies which we need to embrace with alacrity are pretty much the same as we are polluting the bejaysus out of our planet, and rapidly running it out of precious resources.........

 

[The Apprentices]

This doesnt alter the premise of what I said.

The apple dropping is the test of whether gravity makes things drop. It will drop every time.

The rods moving (in the hands of a "dowser") is the test of whether a dowser can find water. They cannot reliably/consistently do so, the large test/experiment proved this. They find water no better than random, which would suggest when they DO find water (out in the field), it is just luck, or the person holding the sticks is finding water some other way, subconsciously or otherwise. Which is why they cannot do it when all these other cues are removed (like the lay of the land, vegetation or whatever).

Regardless of ANYTHING else to do with science and nature and what man does or does not know. This thread is about whether dowsing works, and it has been proven that it doesnt.

I think what should be done here is to let them doing what they are doing with whatever skills they posess and let them get on with whatever they want to.

It matters not to me wheather they find their water with said stick or not, nor should it to anyone if it works or not.

We are quickly aproaching a time in our history which enables us to walk all over childerick for our security which is slowly destroying our whole.

Something really worth looking into.