Double brood +

[bjosephd]

Wondering if I should have gone 8 frame... this all sounds heavy.

However... Got a load of ML 10 frame Langs on the way... so we'll see! Got my hammer at the ready.

Mr Michael Palmer... when will you ever find time to write a book?

 

[Vortex]

I don't find brood+half a particular phaff .. even if it does mean I have both Hoffman and Manley super frames (I use manleys in the honey supers as you can stand them on their side without the frames sliding about).
Standard UK lang is 10 Hoffman frames or 9 Manleys.
A full honey super will have 30-40lbs of honey and lifting 3 of those off a 6' stack just to get at the brood boxes is no fun, and in this respect National supers having nice external handles are better.. but then I find assembling bottom space nationals a pain. It much easier to place the parts on a flat bench and assemble them without worrying about ensuring the sides are 8mm in the air.
Assuming you run double brood, and don't run boosted colonies like Michael does (several of his videos are available on you-tube if you're interested - shame his lectures at the National Honey show were the year before they started videoing them), then I guess half of your upper box is liable to be filled with stores, making it approximately the same weight as a honey supper. Apart from the weight, having this level of stores has pro's and cons .. they're likely to get through the winter better, if you don't have good flows you'll get less crop as they'll fill the upper BB first.
Also as Michael pointed out, if you're pushed for time just up end the upper BB on top of the lower BB..I do it all the time.. it's easier with a half of course

 

[Swarm]

With regards to tipping the top box and setting it on its side on the lower box, it should be stressed that this is great for TBS but not so good for BBS.

 

[madasafish]

I went jumbo Langs to avoid all the above faffing.

 

[Goran]

Goran, I think I understand you. If so, is that very similar to a Demaree operation?

It is simmilar. But I do that to all colonies before any goes to swarming mood. The goal is to have strong colony in time when it has to be ( to have a lot of young bees to take nectar from foragers), and still to don't swarm.
For me simpliest solution when some colony is measuring branches around, to " release a blood" to it. That means if is before my main forage, I take 2 frames of brood, 2 frames of food with bees on them and a queen and take 3km away for couple weeks. In colony which stay at place I leave 2 qcells. That way swarming mood stops and bees again are in harvest mode. I read some researches that when qcell present in a colony without a queen, yields increase for up to 70%. I don't know exactly, never measured also because I take some bees away with split. But frankly, such strong colonies which remain bring nice load of honey. Some even full deep box. Partially is cause there is also a brood stop and bees are " all in honey".

Some "dequeen" all the colonies in such way and have decent crop plus new colonies ( nucs) which they sell after, or increase their stock. I am not for it, cause after main forage I could split colony in 4 ways, and later help with adding frame of brood if some seems to be in trouble to "grow".

Some even go further and before main forage apply dzierzon diamond rule. So far, I find it not for me. After main forage you get weaker colonies, which is problem if you have continous forage.

So options are endless, you should choose how to shape your beekeeping and feel satisfied with your beekeeping. Of course if you are hobby or independent commercial..

 

[Erichalfbee]

I went jumbo Langs to avoid all the above faffing.

I did ask earlier in the thread whether anybody was using Jumbo Langs.
How do you find them?
About the same brood area as a 14x12.

 

[BeeJayBee]

I did ask earlier in the thread whether anybody was using Jumbo Langs.
How do you find them?.

I use them too.

They're okay. Big, but okay. A healthy colony of our local bees will fill the brood box.

About the same brood area as a 14x12.

No, the frames are the same as Dadant brood, which are bigger than 14x12. The Jumbo Lang brood box takes 10 frames, Dadant brood box takes 11.

Commercial is closer in area to the Jumbo Lang or Dadant brood frames.

Take a look http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=856

 

[madasafish]

I did ask earlier in the thread whether anybody was using Jumbo Langs.
How do you find them?
About the same brood area as a 14x12.

My bees fill a brood box with bees.. just about.
I can lift a full brood box but I would rather not about 60-70Kgs..

Mine are all on stands about 75cms off the ground so inspection is painless frame at a time. I use shallow supers which are at worst 30Kgs when full so manageable.

My back does not like weights so double brood is a no go.. So I use frame straps rather than weights on a roof..

Overall: fine. And easy to make yourself.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Thanks, both.
I'll stick to my 14x12

No,

Take a look http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=856

Thanks..a little bigger then, looking at foundation sizes

 

[BrianO]

The thing is a single national brood box is to small for the vast majority of queens these days, therefore brood and a half or double brood is necessary, brood and a half is rather a sloppy method, one that I used alot. Double brood in this part of the country results in little ho ey crop. I prefer 14 x12, so I would recommend you go for a bigger hive than a standard national

My conclusion after two seasons of faffing around.

Have had some on Single Nationals Brood, couple on Double Brood and some on Brood and Half, all depending on the colony development.

Biting the bullett and planning to switch to Poly Langstroth next season .

Think after a lot of consideration and watching colony development over last two seasons Standard National here in a good forage location is too small.

 

[Poly Hive]

As a generality I find queens are all too keen to go up.

Given this tendency it seems logical to put the 2nd BB on top. It can assist if a comb of open brood is placed in the central position over the lower nest and a foundation in it's place below. No need to find the queen she will toddle up in her own time and then work both boxes if she has it in her.

KISS (Keep it simple silly)

PH

 

[bjosephd]

...It can assist if a comb of open brood is placed in the central position over the lower nest and a foundation in it's place below.
PH

Cool thanks...

If attempting foundationless, do you feel a foundationless frame instead of said lower brood-splitting foundation frame is ok? I much depends how many frames of brood I have to spread around/up/down and what the remainder of frames consist of.

With 10 frames (Lang) it's less pleasing when it comes to working from a frame in the middle... as there is no middle frame! Unless I dummy down a bit while getting them to spread to 2 boxes.

 

[Poly Hive]

Personally I feel not using foundation is a mistake but each to their own.

PH

 

[Ely]

I've just gone back to Nationals using the Rose method.

Have you finished a full season with this method? How did you find it?

 

[BrianO]

As a generality I find queens are all too keen to go up.

Given this tendency it seems logical to put the 2nd BB on top. It can assist if a comb of open brood is placed in the central position over the lower nest and a foundation in it's place below. No need to find the queen she will toddle up in her own time and then work both boxes if she has it in her.

KISS (Keep it simple silly)

PH

Indeed..... but with an average year and average colony they will not fill both boxes , storing honey that would have gone into your super in a smaller setup.

So to be successful with DB need to be an area of good forage and managing a very strong colony. My experience of it anyway with double national brood.

 

[bjosephd]

Personally I feel not using foundation is a mistake but each to their own.

Because of the random mess they can potentially make?

B

 

[bjosephd]

Indeed..... but with an average year and average colony they will not fill both boxes , storing honey that would have gone into your super in a smaller setup.

So to be successful with DB need to be an area of good forage and managing a very strong colony. My experience of it anyway with double national brood.

It's a fair point. Although I'm keen to not have to put tons of feed down them come autumn, and have no need for a monster honey harvest. So BBs with good honey stocks might be a good thing.

So at this stage I'm keen to see how bees move and inhabit the space when they don't have restrictions, I feel I will learn more about what bees would rather do this way.

I'm sure I will learn some hard and heavy lessons... but maybe some other lessons that other beeks never got to learn.

I'm looking forward to reporting back at the end of the season when I've harvested and juiced my last apple to see what I have proved, or how many I told you so's I rightfully get! haha

(you get apples from bees right?)

 

[Poly Hive]

Hmm.. won't fill both boxes and honey lost?

I would have thought the Irish climate was milder perhaps then where I am in the East Mids dead in the middle of England.

I find they will use a good 16 to 18 of the 20 combs on offer and often more and the honey goes into the supers normally, though sadly not last year.

Oh saying that I had some 8 supers filled but after putting on the clearer boards life got very complicated for a month and of course by the time I got back to them the honey was robbed out. Such is life. By complicated both dogs got injured, one took meningitis and we lost our much loved MIL. All in the one week.

PH

 

[bjosephd]

Sounds like that was a sad week for you PH.

"Hmm.. won't fill both boxes and honey lost?"

Again that makes sense. However, I wonder if that because bothe boxes, and therefore frames, are the same size, it would make it a lot easier drop ready filled frames of stores/honey down from the top box to the bottom and fully kit it out for winter and again maybe be able to reduce the need for frantic winter autumn feeding? Reducing down to a single well stocked langstroth box if the season didn't manage to fill up both boxes adequately?

Again... just guessing... still a semi virtual beekeeper!

BJD

 

[Millet]

Hmm.. won't fill both boxes and honey lost?

I would have thought the Irish climate was milder perhaps then where I am in the East Mids dead in the middle of England.

I find they will use a good 16 to 18 of the 20 combs on offer and often more and the honey goes into the supers normally, though sadly not last year.

Oh saying that I had some 8 supers filled but after putting on the clearer boards life got very complicated for a month and of course by the time I got back to them the honey was robbed out. Such is life. By complicated both dogs got injured, one took meningitis and we lost our much loved MIL. All in the one week.

PH

I feel for you on that subject i lost one to meningitis too, he died on the back seat of my car while traveling to the vets.