Don't know whether to laugh or cry

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When I hear this rubbish being spouted about matchsticks under the crown board to improved ventilation, I think of Derek Mitchell who has been banging the drum about reduced "ventilation" and increased insulation for at least 5 years. He has travelled the country telling beekeeping associations of his findings about the thermal performance of hives and yet it seems there are none so deaf as those that do not wish to hear.

We've got to consider the enclosures in which bees evolved, generally holes in trees to see that bees preferred a single bottom entrance - Tom Seeley. In addition, the walls of these enclosures is generally reckoned to be 100mm thick and yet man, in his infinite wisdom, puts bees in squat wooden hives with walls 19mm thick. Bees have adapted to these conditions but at what expense?

Beefy's perceptive post could form the basis of several PhDs but many beekeepers do not think beyond what they were told 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago. Even seemingly intelligent beekeepers still insist on leaving feed holes open in crown boards and use gabled roofs so that two 30mm diameter holes can be incorporated for even more "ventilation".

Sorry Derek but you need a bigger drum.

CVB

:winner1st::winner1st::winner1st::winner1st::winner1st:

4mm solid Cellotex crownboard an 50mm Kingspan inside roof..... no winter losses for years.

Whatever tosh some spout!!

Chons da
 
Chattering classes, then :D
Hey! :)

I find I get condensation (I do not top ventilate) when I leave them on too much space. Double brood is usually a disaster and I still have two to knock down. Best overwinterings are when I can squeeze the whole lot into a Paynes nuc that I then feed solid. This year one of those expanded to fill 15 National brood boxes so size is not an issue.
 
It is only the groovy gang with the right bits of paper who are allowed to contribute.
Sadly, not just true of the BBKA

Beekeepers seem to love to form into polarised groups and slag off the other side (like politics).
So true!

Not sure about the free flow of air comment.
I know of a colony that had some fondant place on for the winter that meant the lid no longer fitted. Big strong colony, with fondant if they needed it, but fizzled out all the same. Could have been some other factor I suppose, but they looked big and strong going in to the winter. Sadly, I didn't feel I could interfere as they weren't mine.

Until I get some thicker insulation, we've been using the proplex protective sheets that we used on the roof. with it being light enough, the bees seem to open and close any gaps to adjust the ventilation themselves. It's all nailed down with propolis in the winter but lifted with bees coming and going in the summer.
 
Sadly, not just true of the BBKA


So true!

Not sure about the free flow of air comment.
I know of a colony that had some fondant place on for the winter that meant the lid no longer fitted. Big strong colony, with fondant if they needed it, but fizzled out all the same. Could have been some other factor I suppose, but they looked big and strong going in to the winter. Sadly, I didn't feel I could interfere as they weren't mine.

r.


I would guess no/inadequate varroa treatment..
Or queen died mid winter..
Or bad nosema...
 
I sure wouldn't, especially if I'd spent hours foraging fuel to heat the house.
Bees don't "heat the house". They heat the cluster. Farrer's work proved this conclusively.

Energy wise it's more efficient for bees to overwinter in insulated surroundings, that bit is common sense.
Common sense to a bee? Or common sense to a human? Turn this around and ask yourself what a bee considers the perfect place to live. Hollow trees are not exactly well insulated and wooden boxes are less so, yet bees winter just fine in both hollow trees and wooden boxes.

We've got to consider the enclosures in which bees evolved, generally holes in trees to see that bees preferred a single bottom entrance
Seeley could do a bit more research. I've cut enough bee trees to know that bees show very little preference for location of the entrance as correlated with position of the hive/cluster. The primary factors for a swarm are size of the cavity, infestation with ants (no ants!), orientation of the entrance(not facing north in the northern hemisphere), size of the entrance (about 2 inches diameter is preferred), and height above the ground (minimum 10 feet up). This does not mean bees won't move into a tree with an entrance at ground level and with the cavity below ground down in the roots. Yes, I cut out a colony just like this. Bees living in an area with very few trees will readily move into any available ground cavity or even under a rock overhang. There is a cave in Puerto Rico with a dozen or so colonies of bees hanging from the roof.

Stating a fixed opinion on just about anything related to bees is IMO inviting the bees to prove you are wrong. That said, I live in a different climate than most who read and post here. I've found that an upper entrance works best with my bees kept in wooden boxes i.e. not poly or other heavily insulated constructions. I lost colonies when I first started beekeeping due to moisture accumulating on the top cover causing mold and dysentery. Once I learned to reduce the lower entrance and add a small upper entrance, winter survival was a lot more likely. I have not tried poly so have no idea if that would change the paradigm.

Mobus found that heavily insulated boxes caused a problem with water availability in the hive. This was under very specific conditions where he combined two large colonies for winter and placed the resulting cluster in a hive enclosed in thick insulation. By means of weighing bees and weighing the cluster, he proved that the bees were severely water deficient which caused them to fly out in the middle of winter to forage for water. Do a bit of math and you will find that metabolizing honey does not just release the @17 percent moisture that is in the honey, but the sugar molecule actually produces water as it oxidizes. C6-H12-O6 + 6 O2 = 6 CO2 + 6 H2O This suggests that wintering bees need to metabolize enough honey to meet their winter water needs given that they can't fly out and forage at low temperatures. A highly insulated hive prevents this cycle as the bees don't need to metabolize as much honey to keep warm. An interesting finding was that very small clusters of bees survived better in heavily insulated hives as compared to wooden boxes. Nice food for thought as winter nears.

All said, I still agree that matchsticks are a bad idea, just for different reasons. I find an upper entrance that a bee can enter and exit from is far better. A hole 3/8 to 1/2 inch diameter is plenty big enough.
 
Bees heat the cluster not the hive
Of course they do but the cluster loses heat to its surroundings.
I took a picture of our association hives last year with an infra red camera and you could clearly see the heat signature of the cluster
Nothing was visible on the poly hives

As for heavy insulation
Well I just make sure the top is better insulated than the sides so water collects on the sides not on the top to drip down onto the bees
 
Bees heat the cluster not the hive
Of course they do but the cluster loses heat to its surroundings.
I took a picture of our association hives last year with an infra red camera and you could clearly see the heat signature of the cluster
Nothing was visible on the poly hives

As for heavy insulation
Well I just make sure the top is better insulated than the sides so water collects on the sides not on the top to drip down onto the bees

I use wooden floors and water does condense around those.. I assume bees use this a water source as the rest of the hive is heavily insulated - cosies 100mm celotex roof 50mm sides...wooden hives 18mm thick.

Never see many bees flying in winter - we have a pond and in spring lots of bees on the sides- none in autumn/winter..
 
I use wooden floors and water does condense around those.. I assume bees use this a water source as the rest of the hive is heavily insulated - cosies 100mm celotex roof 50mm sides...wooden hives 18mm thick.

Never see many bees flying in winter - we have a pond and in spring lots of bees on the sides- none in autumn/winter..

That's why many advise, with wooden floors, to put a shim under the rear of the hive so that the floor slopes down towards the entrance.

Good use for matchsticks really :D
 
It's hard to control where condensation occurs: this is why I have found double brood problematic even if both boxes are poly. The lower part (most of the bottom box, later in winter) is cold, empty and ... mouldy. Yuk. I hope the weekend is warm and I can wrestle my two 2-brood down to 2 1-brood (See "Glad That's Over" thread...) I can see (open-minded to a fault) that having a vertical ice blast might at least reduce that problem. But right-sizing seems a more efficient way to do so.
 
Bees heat the cluster not the hive
Of course they do but the cluster loses heat to its surroundings.
I took a picture of our association hives last year with an infra red camera and you could clearly see the heat signature of the cluster
Nothing was visible on the poly hives

As for heavy insulation
Well I just make sure the top is better insulated than the sides so water collects on the sides not on the top to drip down onto the bees

I frickin detest that comment 'Bees heat the cluster not the hive' its like saying I heat my body not my clothes!
as you point out above, yes they heat the cluster but don't have to work as hard to do so in an insulated hive :banghead:
 
I frickin detest that comment 'Bees heat the cluster not the hive' its like saying I heat my body not my clothes!
A person wearing clothes is a false simile for bees in a hive. The better comparison is with a person in a house as compared to bees in a hive. Do you heat the rooms in your home? Do you keep them at a relatively even temperature say somewhere around 20C? Have you noticed some people let a few rooms of their home drop to lower temperatures to save expense while keeping the rooms they live in near 20C? For similar reasons, bees heat the cluster keeping it around 35C while letting the hive they are in go up or down with the ambient temperature. It is normal for a cluster of bees to be completely happy with 8C air next to a 35C cluster. That you hate the statement "Bees heat the cluster not the hive" does not make it false.

The worst two things for a colony of bees in winter are high humidity and strong wind. If these two are addressed properly, even a small healthy colony of bees with adequate stores can make it through winter.
 
If these two are addressed properly, even a small healthy colony of bees with adequate stores can make it through winter.

I'm overwintering an Apidea for the first time this year. Well, trying to... The arrangement is, from the bottom: base of a Paynes Poly nuc; layer of correx with center hole to provide wasp defence (successfully so far); brood chamber of Paynes nuc with 6 empty frames just to, you know, try and persuade everyone not to abscond; layer of correx with hole under frames; three frame Apidea / feed box kept topped up with fondant from time to time, the whole surrounded by an otherwise empty Paynes poly brood box; plastic crownboard; roof. (Could add some correx, come to think of it.)

Wish me luck. It's a "second life" for this Apidea; the first life fills a poly nuc.
 
A person wearing clothes is a false simile for bees in a hive. The better comparison is with a person in a house as compared to bees in a hive. Do you heat the rooms in your home? Do you keep them at a relatively even temperature say somewhere around 20C? Have you noticed some people let a few rooms of their home drop to lower temperatures to save expense while keeping the rooms they live in near 20C? For similar reasons, bees heat the cluster keeping it around 35C while letting the hive they are in go up or down with the ambient temperature. It is normal for a cluster of bees to be completely happy with 8C air next to a 35C cluster. That you hate the statement "Bees heat the cluster not the hive" does not make it false.

The worst two things for a colony of bees in winter are high humidity and strong wind. If these two are addressed properly, even a small healthy colony of bees with adequate stores can make it through winter.

The laws of physics make "Bees heat the cluster not the hive" false and completely erroneous. It is calumny that this has been promulgated for so long. The honey bees as group can change the amount of heat that escapes them by clustering by about factor of 4 but that is it. They cannot choose were that heat goes and in a hive that has a low thermal conductance the internal temperature will rise considerably even when the bees cluster. A 2kg tight cluster still loses a minimum of 10W[1]. In a wood hive with a conductance of 2.5W/C thats a temperature difference across the walls of 4C. In a Polyhive with a conductance of 1W/C then that 10W gives a temperature difference 10C higher inside than outside. No maybes.[2-4]

1) Southwick, E. E. (1982). Metabolic energy of intact honey bee colonies. Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology -- Part A: Physiology, 71(2), 277–281. https://doi.org/10.1016/0300-9629(82)90400-5
2) Incropera, F. P., Dewitt, D. P., Bergman, T. L., & Lavine, A. S. (2007). The Conduction Shape Factor and Dimensionless Conduction Heat Rate. In F. P. Incropera (Ed.), Fundamentals of Heat and MassTransfer (pp. 207–212). John Wiley and sons.
3) Seeley, T. D. (2019). The Lives of Bees The Untold Story of the Honey Bee in the Wild. Princeton University Press.
4) Mitchell, D. (2016). Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures of Apis mellifera: implications for survival, clustering, humidity regulation and Varroa destructor. International Journal of Biometeorology, 60(5), 629–638. https://doi.org/10.1007/s00484-015-1057-z
 
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A person wearing clothes is a false simile for bees in a hive. The better comparison is with a person in a house as compared to bees in a hive. Do you heat the rooms in your home? Do you keep them at a relatively even temperature say somewhere around 20C? Have you noticed some people let a few rooms of their home drop to lower temperatures to save expense while keeping the rooms they live in near 20C? For similar reasons, bees heat the cluster keeping it around 35C while letting the hive they are in go up or down with the ambient temperature. It is normal for a cluster of bees to be completely happy with 8C air next to a 35C cluster. That you hate the statement "Bees heat the cluster not the hive" does not make it false.

The worst two things for a colony of bees in winter are high humidity and strong wind. If these two are addressed properly, even a small healthy colony of bees with adequate stores can make it through winter.

I've seen some absolute rubbish posted on the interweb in my time - but this must rank up there with the worse.

But then again - take it where it comes from.
 
The laws of physics make "Bees heat the cluster not the hive" false and completely erroneous. It is calumny that this has been promulgated for so long. [/url]

Are you saying bees heat the hive and don't keep the cluster warm?
 
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Derek, your post ignores the bees ability to raise their output of heat to deal with lower temperatures. IOW, your post suggests the amount of heat generated is fixed. My experience is that the bees increase heat generated while clustering tighter to reduce the surface area of the cluster reducing the escape of heat from the cluster. The combination of generating more while letting less escape is very much what I describe as heating the cluster, not the hive.
 
It is physically impossible to heat the cluster without heating the hive. There are always air curents conducting heat away from the cluster and heating the cluster heats the frames and foundation with which they are in contact and which conduct heat away...to the air and the rest of the hive...

And as the cluster moves around the hive, various parts heat up and others cool down...

Some of the infra red photos of hives showing temperature gradients within the hive prove it absolutely.
 
I think there is much confusion here. We need to break it down to the layers through which a joule of heat has to pass to get from a metabolizing bee to the environment. Simplifying: 1) the cluster 2) the air in the hive, which may or may not have a net convection current due to ventilation (most of the transmission will be by convection anyway) and 3) the hive wall / boundary layer outside.

The temperature drop from (say) 35C to (say) 0C will occur in proportion to the thermal resistivity of those layers (inverse of conductivity). The energy the bees need to metabolise is in inverse proportion to the total resistivity.

Different hive materials have different resistivity therefore they will result in different internal hive temperatures which will in turn lead to different cluster behaviour. It's interdependent and you have to look at the total path.

Or, in a poly hive, the cluster will be looser AND less metabolism will be needed. But you can't just rant about one half (at best) of the equation while ignoring the rest.
 

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