Don't know whether to laugh or cry

[enrico]

Just to be a devil's advocate. If you don't like it then offer your own writings to educate others in the way you think to be correct? You never know they may welcome new blood! Easy to criticise without bothering to offer an alternative!
E

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Just to be a devil's advocate. If you don't like it then offer your own writings to educate others in the way you think to be correct? You never know they may welcome new blood! Easy to criticise without bothering to offer an alternative!
E

People have written in almost annually to call the matchstick men out, every year they get ignored, It is only the groovy gang with the right bits of paper who are allowed to contribute. Don't worry, I will be writing - again!

 

[Swarm]

Just to be a devil's advocate. If you don't like it then offer your own writings to educate others in the way you think to be correct? You never know they may welcome new blood! Easy to criticise without bothering to offer an alternative!
E

Well said, Enrico.
Just to carry on with this devil's advocate role, I've suggested many times to a beekeeper mate that he should 'cover those holes' and put some insulation on. It goes in one ear and out the other. He was glad he didn't take my advice last year, when they brought in nectar so fast he was supering two at a time and some colonies still filled the roof
On top of this, his bees do very well over Wintering. Good, healthy, thriving colonies and every year is the same.
How would I go about explaining he is doing it all wrong? Mind you, he does have very good stock.

 

[For want of a better word]

excellent tactic to new beekeepers, if they lose a large proportion of their bees each winter, then they will need to buy more each spring or if they are not ‘dedicated ‘ will give up. Glad i don’t have anything to do with this organisation, it’s just a pity small time beekeepers have no where else to go.
S

bibba

 

[madasafish]

Well said, Enrico.
Just to carry on with this devil's advocate role, I've suggested many times to a beekeeper mate that he should 'cover those holes' and put some insulation on. It goes in one ear and out the other. He was glad he didn't take my advice last year, when they brought in nectar so fast he was supering two at a time and some colonies still filled the roof
On top of this, his bees do very well over Wintering. Good, healthy, thriving colonies and every year is the same.
How would I go about explaining he is doing it all wrong? Mind you, he does have very good stock.

I assume he lives in South Wales.
Balmy climate where Sun Hives would work,,

 

[Karsal]

Always thought the condensation in the outermost corners of the hive offered the bees a water source in the depths of winter and no need to leave the confines of the hive.

 

[madasafish]

Always thought the condensation in the outermost corners of the hive offered the bees a water source in the depths of winter and no need to leave the confines of the hive.

There will always be condensation in any hive in winter as hot damp air circulates slowly around the hive. When it hits the bottom of combs near the floor , or the floor.. moisture will condense.

There will be less of it - and it will not drip over the bees..

I see no difference in the behaviour of hive types in winter.. very few bees flying. If they want water, the entrance is usually wet with rain - or snow - or frost...

And if the argument about water gathering has any validity, why then do bees overwinter better in insulated hives? If water collection was a major isue they should not.

It's just an issue seized upon by beekeeprs who are reluctant to change.. in my view.

I would love to see scientific studies proving the existence of a water collecting issue in the UK..in winter. Given our climate, I suggest it is unlikely

 

[Stiffy]

bibba

I don’t even recognise them as an organisation, will leave at that !
S

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I assume he lives in South Wales.
Balmy climate where Sun Hives would work,,

No, he's Wimbledon BKA - different planet, been keeping bees for a dozen or so years I think

 

[Erichalfbee]

No, he's Wimbledon BKA -

Chattering classes, then

 

[enrico]

It is only the groovy gang with the right bits of paper who are allowed to contribute. Don't worry, I will be writing - again!

Mmm! Well I have none of those. Make sure you read the November issue. You may recognise someone!
E

 

[Swarm]

I assume he lives in South Wales.
Balmy climate where Sun Hives would work,,

Stoke on Trent is hardly Vladivostok

 

[madasafish]

Stoke on Trent is hardly Vladivostok

It' s 19C in Vladivostok today.
https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/russia/vladivostok/ext

And 12C in sunny (err very wet) Biddulph
https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/forecast/gcqqnw58n#2019-09-27

 

[Walrus]

I'm puzzled by this issue. Beekeepers seem to love to form into polarised groups and slag off the other side (like politics). Maybe both parties are right for their own locations/conditions, I have no idea.

I know that I had a colony last year in a knackered old wood hive with holes in it all over the place - effectively at least 4 "entrances" including at the top, and they got through winter perfectly well. I've had a colony with a large open mesh floor do terribly over winter with no holes upstairs & insulated roof. Not exactly a large sample size

I know that Vickery says this in his excellent book:
A cluster of bees can withstand long periods of cold weather if they have access to enough honey so that they can continue to generate heat. A colony that was placed in a refrigerated room, at an average temperature of -24.2 Celsius for 84 days, maintained a minimum temperature of +27 degrees C in the centre of the cluster for the entire period (Owens, 1971).

I know that Mike Palmer uses upper entrances in winter partly because snow gets deep and may block lower entrances but also very much to facilitate the elimination of moisture. I also know it's so cold outside that the air is very dry in Vermont in winter, whereas we have it milder and wetter in the UK.

I know that many beekeepers say that it is not cold which kills bees but dampness.

Last year most of mine were poly boxes, no ventilation anywhere, and solid floors...floors were mostly wet.

The consensus on this forum, which includes some very wise and experienced beekeepers, is that upper ventilation is an old fashioned idea to be ridiculed. I have to respect that - there's some very good beekeepers here.

Is it really that big a deal? Is having an upper entrance as bad as not feeding or not treating?! I genuinely don't know.

 

[enrico]

No walrus, it isn't a big deal. Ideas change, hopefully to be more efficient and better but that doesn't mean the old ways don't work. They worked then so they will probably work now. Just because you put an engine on a cart instead of a horse doesn't mean the wheels won't turn for both!
There are no rules just a desire for improvement

E

 

[birdsandbees]

Walrus;690151]I'm puzzled by this issue. Beekeepers seem to love to form into polarised groups and slag off the other side (like politics). Maybe both parties are right for their own locations/conditions, I have no idea.

Partially - in my own experience it's often the unwillingness to accept that there IS a different way to do things that bugs me!

I know that Vickery says this in his excellent book:
A cluster of bees can withstand long periods of cold weather if they have access to enough honey so that they can continue to generate heat. A colony that was placed in a refrigerated room, at an average temperature of -24.2 Celsius for 84 days, maintained a minimum temperature of +27 degrees C in the centre of the cluster for the entire period (Owens, 1971).

I don't doubt it, the key thing is having sufficient stores as they will burn through it quicker, another analogy would be a person can survive in a house with no windows and wearing thin clothing as long as they have food but it wouldn't be a comfortable experience for them and they would burn up more energy trying to keep warm.

I know that Mike Palmer uses upper entrances in winter partly because snow gets deep and may block lower entrances but also very much to facilitate the elimination of moisture. I also know it's so cold outside that the air is very dry in Vermont in winter, whereas we have it milder and wetter in the UK.

A small upper entrance, sure why not, if the bees don't want it they will propolise it up but it's there if they need it, but he does have bigger hives than most of us National owners so more stores and bees too no doubt

I know that many beekeepers say that it is not cold which kills bees but dampness.

I've challenged this before, it's an over simplification, stick some bees in a freezer and see how alive they are after a few days.
As above- in a hive where they have sufficient stores to fuel themselves they will live but stick some match stick under the lid and the chances of survival will reduce.

Last year most of mine were poly boxes, no ventilation anywhere, and solid floors...floors were mostly wet.

The consensus on this forum, which includes some very wise and experienced beekeepers, is that upper ventilation is an old fashioned idea to be ridiculed. I have to respect that - there's some very good beekeepers here.

Is it really that big a deal? Is having an upper entrance as bad as not feeding or not treating?! I genuinely don't know.

Ultimately no, it's entirely up to them what they do but when old ideas have been replaced by newer, more logical and tested methods it would seem a bit daft to follow old ideas just because that what they used to do

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'm puzzled by this issue. Beekeepers seem to love to form into polarised groups and slag off the other side (like politics). Maybe both parties are right for their own locations

Is it really that big a deal? Is having an upper entrance as bad as not feeding or not treating?! I genuinely don't know.

Not a big deal
But
One of the things you often hear from beginner hobbyists is, “ I want to do the best for the bees”
And why not?
What I take issue with is advocating leaving two Porter escape holes open at the top or lifting the crownboard which must equate to a bigger surface area.

If you insist on adding ventilation why not use those matchsticks UNDERNEATH the brood box?

A top entrance is not the same. The tree box I have as an avatar is in my garden. There are two entrances. One at the bottom and one at the top. The bees have used both till a month ago whereupon they propolised the bottom one.

Bees survive despite what the beekeeper forces upon them

 

[Beefriendly]

What I take issue with is advocating leaving two Porter escape holes open at the top or lifting the crownboard which must equate to a bigger surface area.

But what issue are you taking?
Energy wise it's more efficient for bees to overwinter in insulated surroundings, that bit is common sense. But bees have and will survive even if you leave them in a through draft all winter as long as they have sufficient stores to maintain the cluster temperature.

What is not clear to me is whether there might be unseen benefits (or detriments) to bees clustering at lower outside temps and having to work harder during the winter to stay warm.
It's like some cows, Aberdeen Angus and Belted Galloways (for example) hate to be inside during the winter they want to be outside and will fight to get out of barns if forced into them...., whereas your modern Fresians would die if they were left outside all winter.
My gut feeling is insulation and less work might mean that the life span of the winter bee is extended which might help explain why I see the biggest brood nests in insulated hives coem spring (vs old wooden ones when I first did comparisons). Possibly because less bees are required to maintain brood temperatures and more mature foragers left at a crucial time when natural resources needed to kick stat the colony are precious.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

When I hear this rubbish being spouted about matchsticks under the crown board to improved ventilation, I think of Derek Mitchell who has been banging the drum about reduced "ventilation" and increased insulation for at least 5 years. He has travelled the country telling beekeeping associations of his findings about the thermal performance of hives and yet it seems there are none so deaf as those that do not wish to hear.

We've got to consider the enclosures in which bees evolved, generally holes in trees to see that bees preferred a single bottom entrance - Tom Seeley. In addition, the walls of these enclosures is generally reckoned to be 100mm thick and yet man, in his infinite wisdom, puts bees in squat wooden hives with walls 19mm thick. Bees have adapted to these conditions but at what expense?

Beefy's perceptive post could form the basis of several PhDs but many beekeepers do not think beyond what they were told 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago. Even seemingly intelligent beekeepers still insist on leaving feed holes open in crown boards and use gabled roofs so that two 30mm diameter holes can be incorporated for even more "ventilation".

Sorry Derek but you need a bigger drum.

CVB

 

[Beefriendly]

I think of Derek Mitchell who has been banging the drum about reduced "ventilation" and increased insulation for at least 5 years.

Derek has produced a lot of equations that show insulated hives lose less heat than non insulated. But this has yet to to be turned into some dirty hands on practical experiments that unequivocally demonstrate that this is advantageous to the bees. Theoretically it may seem obvious, but as Swarm has pointed out, his mate with through ventilation has healthy bees and takes a good crop each year. And we know from past experience that many colonies of bees will survive the winter with matchsticks lifting the crown board. Not saying it's neccessarily better for them, but it's worth thinking about even we all decide insulation is king.

(Ducks and gets tin hat out...)