Do you keep bees the "Darwinian" way?

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No-one has to take any notice of what he has found. I was hoping that some people would have already tried to move in that direction and could relate their experiences. But I'm honestly surprised that anyone should apparently dismiss all of his work as just an academic discovery with no practical use.;)

Do you have more than one hive in the same yard? If you do you're dismissing one of the core findings of his work.
 
Do you have more than one hive in the same yard? If you do you're dismissing one of the core findings of his work.

I've applauded the relevance of his work beyond what some people would think it deserved! ;) There are many beekeeping writers and researchers whose opinions and suggestions I think are relevant and worth trying; more turn up in my "orbit" every week. But, like most beekeepers, I pick through these beekeeping formulae and choose a combination which suits me...a compromise. The combination is changing all the time, to the extent that I'm still not sure how thing will proceed this year. My hives are a mere three metres apart, as I said in the earlier part of my quoted posting:
.....we can't keep our bees in the way they live in the wild...even Tom Seeley doesn't do that.
But they are well insulated, I'm aiming to keep bees from local stock, I haven't fed them and I'm quite good at keeping my hands out of their boxes. BUT....as I am a beekeeper, they aren't left alone as my contribution to re-wilding, and I will be expecting a bit of honey from them as a return favour for the comfy housing I've given them. :)
 
No ... what I am saying is that honey bees have little impact on other insects and in particular pollinators in the UK. That the original article that suggested honey bees were affecting the forage available was put together in the USA where beekeeping is very different and where monoculture is practised in a scale that we don't have in the UK. The study to which I assume you allude was put together on false science by people who have an agenda... there is no evidence anywhere to suggest that honey bees are having any effect on the ability of other insects to find sufficient food. Your post... as I suggested originally is unadulterated rubbish.
Would tend to agree with your assessment.

One of the problems we have..and I have had to deal with it several times...is the assumption that beekeepers are some sort of greedy rapacious idiots..and if we challenge them we are simply dishonest. That's the problem of trying to deal with single issue activists.

Plainly every action has a consequence....every flower pollinated by honey bees is then not available for bumbles etc.

However...the assumption that this then means we are responsible for decline in wild pollinators because we are taking all their food is a deliberate twisting of the facts to maximise their leverage in getting what they want...normally the expulsion of beekeepers.

ANy beekeeper.....large or small...who allows a situation to arise where forage is SO limited by our actions that there is nothing left for the wild pollinators is foolish in the extreme....and I don't think there are many fools on here.

If you strip the forage so bare there is nothing left the first casualty is your own bees. The wild pollinators tend to be up and about earlier than our own...and get first dibs on the flowers as a result. When we MOVE bees to crops we are not thinking of stripping the forage bare.....there is a balance to be had between maximum per colony return and efficient pollination....and a high proportion of nectar and pollen goes uncollected. There is normally plenty for all.

We are back to what you can show in a lab and what happens in the real world again.....

Not a serious issue in the UK...but we still come up against the eager and strident campaigners who want you put out of an area they want for their own species.

Our worst example was a Highland area frequented by some very lovely bumble bees...apparently we were killing them by having bees there despite the target flora of these bees being blaeberries and cowberries..flowering at a time our bees were not there. We only put bees in for the heather flowering..at which time the flora is so abundant we could have put 1000 hives where we were placing 200 and probably still only collect 5% of the resource. When this was pointed out to the pressure groups we were liars..when the estate supported us in the dates of entry we were paying them....when dated pictures of the bees sites in June with no bees in them were provided it was staged. Its was OBVIOUS that was the case. When pointed out that bees in that environment do not survive winter it merely proved that we did not care for bee health so why trust us about bumble bees.

When that all failed to sway the estate the letter writing started......people all over the country started sending in letters to the estate and the conservation bodies they were working with claiming we were liars. Then they got over *70* copies of a single article on the OTC case of 2009 sent through to prove they were dealing with liars............and people wonder why I have honesty concerns about activists?

Why oh why would we do a thing like have bees in an area with little beneficial forage when we have abundant forage elsewhere?

We are still keeping bees on the estate for heather btw............they go in mid/late July..they come out mid September. We see the lovely multi coloured bumbles all the time..there appears to be no conflict at all.
 
You make a good points, however...
Beekeeping is always conducted in the open environment. So every beekeeper impinges on every other and also on the ecosystem as a whole. If you arrive in an area with hundreds of hives you have to be aware of the impact that causes and expect some pushback.
 
As a hobby beekeeper, I find my neighbours appreciate honey bees in their gardens. The buyers of my honey often ask for advice on what flowers to plant in their gardens to attract pollinators. I give them free seeds- poppies and phacelia

You need only look at garden seed catalogues to see lots of pollinator friendly flowers - twenty years ago there were far fewer.

Publicity for honey bees has had a significant effect on the behaviour of gardeners and councils in their planting schemes.
 
You make a good points, however...
Beekeeping is always conducted in the open environment. So every beekeeper impinges on every other and also on the ecosystem as a whole. If you arrive in an area with hundreds of hives you have to be aware of the impact that causes and expect some pushback.

Have heard this said before by folk who really should ask questions first. We are the ONLY people with bees on this particular place. There are zero other honey bees to consider. 200 hives on 48000 Hectares of Calluna ain't exactly flooding.

Push back usually comes on arable settings where farmers and growers get a lot of flack from folk with a tiny handful of hives who seems to think their three/six/ten colonies debar the farmer from bringing in bees for his crops.....tends not to end well for the complainer. Then its the beekeeper brought in who is the evil one. If you want the farm all to yourself get enough bees to perform the task. Then he will not need the migratory hives to come in.

Last time that happened was last year. Farmer with 900 hectares of OSR and 400 hectares of beans......huge amounts...get severe grief from a *four* hive guy about other bees being brought in. all the usual stuff..'my bees are a unique genetic resource'...'these bees rob mines out'....'the big beekeeper steals my honey/bees'...'it is widely known they have small hive beetle'... 'their bees make mines aggressive'....'your crops do not need pollination'...'they have disease x or y'...or even 'they have sick bees and nobody knows what it is'......ANYTHING for leverage.........

However......

In most cases the small beekeepers are not an issue..most are actually pretty friendly and like a brief chinwag. If we know where they are we take it into account. The problems come from a tiny minority..but tiny minorities can make a lot of noise and give the impression they are a bigger movement than they actually are.
 
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Tom Seeley's research was very interesting. You take from it what you want but an understanding that bees can live with varroa should be of interest to every beekeeper I would think.
 
Has anyone heard an explanation for how varroa got into the Arnott forest, which Tom Seeley says is a completely isolated area (the latter fact being kind of the whole premise behind his research)?
 
Has anyone heard an explanation for how varroa got into the Arnott forest, which Tom Seeley says is a completely isolated area (the latter fact being kind of the whole premise behind his research)?

That's a very good question, and maybe the implication is that ironically, the experimental work was the accidental cause?
I have wondered about how those regions of the UK, where it is said that there is no V.destructor, are able to keep free of the pest. It's also hard to see how we can be so certain that any named, geographical areas are pest-free.
Despite bees having a limit to their radius of travel, beekeepers so frequently over-ride this with the transportation of bees and the establishment of new apiaries, that I would have expected all corners of the UK to have Varroa by now. But it certainly seems that wide bodies of water and significant ranges of mountains are a deterrent to bees and hence, their parasitic passengers.
 
Has anyone heard an explanation for how varroa got into the Arnott forest, which Tom Seeley says is a completely isolated area (the latter fact being kind of the whole premise behind his research)?
Tom had been doing research there long before Varroa came on the scene, then just came back many years later just 'on spec' to see what had happened to the colonies post varroa, by what I remember from his talk last year, it just arrived in the same way as it did in most other areas, a natural movement probably from a swarm moving in from elsewhere.
That's a very good question, and maybe the implication is that ironically, the experimental work was the accidental cause?
How?
 
Tom had been doing research there long before Varroa came on the scene, then just came back many years later just 'on spec' to see what had happened to the colonies post varroa, by what I remember from his talk last year, it just arrived in the same way as it did in most other areas, a natural movement probably from a swarm moving in from elsewhere.

Indeed.

But his conclusions about bees being able to live with varroa are based on the fact that the Arnott forest is an isolated area - that's surely the whole point of his comparison over the time period - he is saying that those colonies are direct descendants of the original colonies from the 70s/80s (or whenever). But if swarms can move into the area, how can he be sure that he wasn't just looking at colonies that had recently swarmed in from some managed apiary somewhere.
 
I don't know how. :unsure: I meant was it @Boston Bees implication?....but obviously that's not so as he's further explained his thinking. Like everyone else, I'm sure, I certainly don't think Tom Seeley would be so irresponsible or careless.:eek:
He never brought bees in to the Arnot forest (different to the bees he brought to Appledore island for his experiments there.) he just measured the behaviour of the ones already there.
 
Have heard this said before by folk who really should ask questions first. We are the ONLY people with bees on this particular place. There are zero other honey bees to consider. 200 hives on 48000 Hectares of Calluna ain't exactly flooding.

Push back usually comes on arable settings where farmers and growers get a lot of flack from folk with a tiny handful of hives who seems to think their three/six/ten colonies debar the farmer from bringing in bees for his crops.....tends not to end well for the complainer. Then its the beekeeper brought in who is the evil one. If you want the farm all to yourself get enough bees to perform the task. Then he will not need the migratory hives to come in.

Last time that happened was last year. Farmer with 900 hectares of OSR and 400 hectares of beans......huge amounts...get severe grief from a *four* hive guy about other bees being brought in. all the usual stuff..'my bees are a unique genetic resource'...'these bees rob mines out'....'the big beekeeper steals my honey/bees'...'it is widely known they have small hive beetle'... 'their bees make mines aggressive'....'your crops do not need pollination'...'they have disease x or y'...or even 'they have sick bees and nobody knows what it is'......ANYTHING for leverage.........

However......

In most cases the small beekeepers are not an issue..most are actually pretty friendly and like a brief chinwag. If we know where they are we take it into account. The problems come from a tiny minority..but tiny minorities can make a lot of noise and give the impression they are a bigger movement than they actually are.

Agreed beeks should concentrate their ire on the guys who have 50 to 100 colonies permanently on the same site ....
Pressure should be on farmers and their backers/subsidies to provide almost year long diverse forage for diverse pollinators. Taking it out on the migratory beekeepers is blaming the consequence not the cause.
 
Has anyone heard an explanation for how varroa got into the Arnott forest, which Tom Seeley says is a completely isolated area (the latter fact being kind of the whole premise behind his research)?
I don't think that the Arnot Forest is isolated in the way that I would consider a place to be so. It's 16 miles miles by road from Ithaca to the forest. The population of Ithaca is 30,000. there are other, smaller towns at similar distances. Where I live, there are many, similar, forested areas at the same distance from our nearest, major town up here in Scotland, and the spread of outlying towns and villages is similar. We also have wild bees in the forests and they will have Varroa and likely originate from escapees from beekeeping.
I suspect that the Arnot bee population comes at least partly from and is kept topped-up by swarms from kept colonies.
This doesn't negate Tom Seeley's findings, but do think the"isolation" and "remoteness" has been over-hyped.
 
I suspect that the Arnot bee population comes at least partly from and is kept topped-up by swarms from kept colonies.
This doesn't negate Tom Seeley's findings

Weeeeellll......

Not entirely, maybe. But certainly most people understand his message to be "Look, colonies have survived in these woods for decades, with varroa but without being topped up with bees from outside the area. This is evidence that bees can learn to live with varroa"
 
Weeeeellll......

Not entirely, maybe. But certainly most people understand his message to be "Look, colonies have survived in these woods for decades, with varroa but without being topped up with bees from outside the area. This is evidence that bees can learn to live with varroa"

Good point....I'm going to stop thinking about it.... :banghead:
 
his conclusions about bees being able to live with varroa are based on the fact that the Arnott forest is an isolated area - that's surely the whole point of his comparison over the time period - he is saying that those colonies are direct descendants of the original colonies from the 70s/80s (or whenever). But if swarms can move into the area, how can he be sure that he wasn't just looking at colonies that had recently swarmed in from some managed apiary somewhere.
Just been digging through some old notes and I thought that this was worth sharing (and reheating the thread)The distrribution of wild bee colonies in the Ano forest was more or less one per square KM (same figure was quoted for other N American areas too) Ten years after the varroa murrain it was again approximately 1 per sq Km, they had the same DNA as the bees he had studied there in the 1970's (as he had archived samples of each colony) and although the number of different genetic 'queen lineages' had reduced from 23 to 3 they still held the same high genetic diversity as the 31 he had studued in 1977.
The survivor bees were also slightly smaller than the pre varroa bees and yes, they had mites but only in small numbers.
 
they had the same DNA as the bees he had studied there in the 1970's

Do you have a reference for this please, as this (rather key) fact is not mentioned in his key 2006 paper? Is it mentioned in a later paper that you could point me to please?

There is a 2015 paper, referencing a 2011 follow-up study by Seeley, that did DNA analysis on the Arnot bees and bees in apiaries within swarming distance of the Arnot forest (there are several, despite the impression given in some articles that the Arnot forest is completely isolated from outside swarms). This DNA analysis was fairly confident (though not certain) that the DNA of the Arnot bees and the current managed bees were not related, but that's not the same thing obviously.

The survivor bees were also slightly smaller than the pre varroa bees and yes, they had mites but only in small numbers.

Again, reference please if possible. His 2006 paper quite specifically concludes that "The Arnot Forest colonies are infested with V. destructor" and that, when compared with some Carniolan colonies he set up as controls, the feral colonies had mite levels that were at least as high, and probably higher, and that therefore "It looks, therefore, rather doubtful that the Arnot Forest bees have evolved mechanisms of resistance to V. destructor mites."

He therefore concluded that the survival of the Arnot forest colonies was not due to varroa resistance being developed, but either to:
a) frequent swarming (brood breaks) or
b) varroa "avirulence" (i.e. that the varroa mites themselves had naturally selected to be less virulent, in order to keep their host alive, which would be a crucial survival mechanism in an environment where there is no drift between colonies thanks to the 1km spacing)

He didn't reach any conclusion as to which of these (if any) it was.

Intriguing subject though.

PDF/01/m6063.pdf.url (apidologie.org)Varroa levels.PNG
 

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