Do you keep bees the "Darwinian" way?

[Paul_The _Swede]

I love the fact that there are so many ways to keep bees. I have just re-watched the Tom Seeley video about this. In many ways it seems like it's not much different from traditional beekeeping. But it definitely goes against the direction of many of the current trends in beekeeping.

Superficially, it amounts to restricting the brood to one deep box and allowing no more than one shallow box for honey. Prof. Seeley accepts he will always get swarming; obviously, with good observation and management, you could avoid that. Yields per hive will be limited, with the major bonus supposedly being that V. destructor populations will be naturally supppressed.

In many ways,to do this is the opposite of how I was planning to operate this year, but he maintains a convincing, evidence-backed argument. I'm wondering if any UK-based beekeepers operate like this in its purest form?

In a way I do something very similar. Me and my wife are not into beekeeping to get a lot of honey out of the bees, but rather try and help them "survive". And we don't sell any honey, only give away some odd jars now and then to family and friends. And I love the books and lectures by Tom Seeley. I have just ordered his book "The Lives of Bees", and look forward to read it.

 

[Swarm]

Did he actually say he was testing for VSH?
Alcohol wash will only tell you how many mites are on the sample. It doesn't tell you anything about the behaviour of workers when they're confronted with varroa mites inside sealed brood.

So buying a VSH mother queen is a waste of money then. The varroa count proved her colony was just as infested as the other two. I'd expect VSH behaviour in workers to reduce the mite load, this lot seemed to be farming them

 

[B+.]

So buying a VSH mother queen is a waste of money then. The varroa count proved her colony was just as infested as the other two. I'd expect VSH behaviour in workers to reduce the mite load, this lot seemed to be farming them

It's a bit difficult to comment about a video I haven't seen. Have you asked him to comment? Perhaps he can explain what you saw.
At the moment, I'm seeing natural mite drops as low as 6 mites over 14 days (5 in first week, 1 in second) without any treatment at all. I'd say that's pretty well controlled - but this is only the starting infestation. SMR/VSH is a brood test, you have to remove and inspect purple-eyed pupae under a microscope to establish that

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Not one?

well, they all had the same grandmother

 

[Swarm]

No need, I saw all I needed to

 

[Repwoc]

No need, I saw all I needed to

Do you have a link to the video?

 

[Swarm]

If you search his name, it's Why buy breeder queens.

 

[Into the lions den]

|Not been reading this thread but have to admit that, upon finding it this morning I have been somewhat amused..

Man keeping bees throughout almost the whole of recorded history has been for the benefits they can bring.........be that the supply of honey, wax, propolis, or for improving the yields of valuable crops. The idea of this being purely a conservation activity to 'save the bees'...which (honey bees especially) were not greatly in trouble anyway...is a VERY recent trait. A 'minute to midnight' phenomenon in the history of beekeeping.. How long that will stay in fashion remains to be seen.

The world wants supplies of honey
Of wax (being natural beeswax is a religious requirement in some faiths)
Propolis in modern alternative medicines....

and the real biggy.....pollination of the world's crops. This outweighs all the other put together.

So...on one hand we have the mainstream beekeeping world who want to keep managing bees for their own business interests..which are closely aligned to society's interests...that's the nature of having a market.

On the other hand we have the principles of many (mostly small) beekeepers whose ideals are radically different. With wanting these low vigour, low production, minimal/zero management colonies that swarm (makes them potentially a social nuisance too) that can survive without intervention. Also spread out at very low densities per sqkm

To go down that route...to avoid the temptation to return to 'bad' practices you have to...
Ban commercial beekeeping and keeping bees in groups of hives at any level.
Eliminate vigorous strains.
Ban trading in honey in batches above a certain level (say 100lb?)
Ban retailing of honey
Make crop pollination by honey bees illegal.
Convince the world you are right.

or

The bee world continues as it is...trying to meet a market..trying to do our best with the tools and forage in hand.

Place your chips on what will happen.....



Also...VSH and hygienic traits are in their infancy. Many claims of VSH in particular are fanciful. Bees that are crosses off these breeder queens are...in the early years...meeting drones from the general populace...and the property becomes very dilute. However, as each wave of breeder queens is used the advantages flowing from it gradually become part of the genetic pattern in the area. It may take many years of feeding in the correct genetics to reach the stage where queens carrying VSH meet a solid enough pattern of drones carrying VSH/hygienic traits. It may take a generation..but it WILL be helping in the end..without going down the 'cold turkey' route of massive bee deaths for a decade or more before survivors (which may have NO other redeeming traits) start thye population recovery.
.

 

[Erichalfbee]

The world wants supplies of honey
Of wax (being natural beeswax is a religious requirement in some faiths)
Propolis in modern alternative medicines....

and the real biggy.....pollination of the world's crops. This outweighs all the other put together.

So...on one hand we have the mainstream beekeeping world who want to keep managing bees for their own business interests..which are closely aligned to society's interests...that's the nature of having a market.

On the other hand we have the principles of many (mostly small) beekeepers whose ideals are radically different. With wanting these low vigour, low production, minimal/zero management colonies that swarm (makes them potentially a social nuisance too) that can survive without intervention. Also spread out at very low densities per sqkm

To go down that route...to avoid the temptation to return to 'bad' practices you have to...
Ban commercial beekeeping and keeping bees in groups of hives at any level.
Eliminate vigorous strains.
Ban trading in honey in batches above a certain level (say 100lb?)
Ban retailing of honey
Make crop pollination by honey bees illegal.
Convince the world you are right.




.

Meanwhile the Chinese corner the market with their syrup in tankers.

 

[user 20297]

The idea of this being purely a conservation activity to 'save the bees'...which (honey bees especially) were not greatly in trouble anyway...is a VERY recent trait.

I don't think Tom Seeley is a part of the "save the bees" trend. His recommendations add up to an idealised approach, where the beekeeper neither prioritises honey production or bee production, but aims for maximised bee health.
If his observations are valid it means that wherever we veer away from or modify this natural approach, there are likely to be negative implications for the health of our bees, which we can choose to deal with as we see fit.
Should they wish to, hobby beekeepers can "play" with this concept more than commercial beekeepers. But despite starting to become a fan of some of these "natural" ideas, I abhor those people who feel that their strongly held beliefs over-ride practicality and the preferences of others. I'm happy with the fact that if my bees die or fail to produce honey, there will still be committed, professional beekeepers out there, who will be able to top me up.

 

[IndiBee]

............. However, as each wave of breeder queens is used the advantages flowing from it gradually become part of the genetic pattern in the area. It may take many years of feeding in the correct genetics to reach the stage where queens carrying VSH meet a solid enough pattern of drones carrying VSH/hygienic traits. It may take a generation..but it WILL be helping in the end..without going down the 'cold turkey' route of massive bee deaths for a decade or more before survivors (which may have NO other redeeming traits) start thye population recovery.
.

Would you expect this process to go in the right direction if people indiscriminately treat every hive they have regardless of checks to see if they need it?

 

[Ash-Rhea]

And never forget that humans can be a force for natural selection too. After all... Are humans unnatural? You can think of humans and managed honey bees as being symbiotic - mutually beneficial. Unfortunately it comes at a cost to other pollinators when honey bees use up the resources relied on by the other species. A lot of people think we are 'helping the bees' but it's sometimes at a cost to biodiversity including other bee species.

 

[pargyle]

And never forget that humans can be a force for natural selection too. After all... Are humans unnatural? You can think of humans and managed honey bees as being symbiotic - mutually beneficial. Unfortunately it comes at a cost to other pollinators when honey bees use up the resources relied on by the other species. A lot of people think we are 'helping the bees' but it's sometimes at a cost to biodiversity including other bee species.

Unaduterated rubbish ... this has come from a piece of imperfect 'science' emanating from some idiot in the USA. Don't believe everything you read in the internet .....

 

[Ash-Rhea]

Unaduterated rubbish ... this has come from a piece of imperfect 'science' emanating from some idiot in the USA. Don't believe everything you read in the internet .....

Can you explain - are you saying that animals don't compete in the wild for food?

 

[Into the lions den]

Would you expect this process to go in the right direction if people indiscriminately treat every hive they have regardless of checks to see if they need it?

If you are working with the right genetics..yes. This means not taking colonies indiscriminately just because they are survivors to breed from....and you have to be ultra fussy about which stock you graft from. Honest, thoroughly tested VSH and hygienic stock being the basis of what you put into a gene pool will eventually modify the gene pool. If it is not stock you are going to breed from it will not make a lot of difference if they are treated or not. Sure..the drones will still do their stuff but this is a long term process of bee improvement..not a one generation magic bullet.

Not a fan of a 'let them die' philosophy. Dont bred from them sure...but they still do a lot of good work for us and in time the beneficial genetics will work their way through.

 

[domino]

I don't think Tom Seeley is a part of the "save the bees" trend. His recommendations add up to an idealised approach, where the beekeeper neither prioritises honey production or bee production, but aims for maximised bee health.
If his observations are valid it means that wherever we veer away from or modify this natural approach, there are likely to be negative implications for the health of our bees, which we can choose to deal with as we see fit.
Should they wish to, hobby beekeepers can "play" with this concept more than commercial beekeepers. But despite starting to become a fan of some of these "natural" ideas, I abhor those people who feel that their strongly held beliefs over-ride practicality and the preferences of others. I'm happy with the fact that if my bees die or fail to produce honey, there will still be committed, professional beekeepers out there, who will be able to top me up.

His approach isn't idealised it is an observation on how bees in the wild have changed their behaviour to accommodate varroa. He's not pitching a beekeeping method he's merely telling people, who want to, how to replicate those conditions.

People just grasped at as yet another varroa silver bullet, I'm honestly surprised it still happens because any beekeeper that wants to stop their bees dying of varroa have all the information and tools to hand to do it.

Anyone remember a few years ago when someone published a paper showing lithium chloride killed varroa and people all over Reddit were trying to work out where to get it from and what a millimole was?

Seeley wanted to know how bees were living with varroa, he found out and explained how; some folks thought it was a secret decoder ring.

 

[user 20297]

This is what one reviewer thinks that Tom Seeley is doing: "Seeley proposes that bee-keepers use knowledge about wild populations to change how they practise their craft. He calls for “Darwinian beekeeping”, modelled after Darwinian medicine, which posits that mismatches between the current environment and the environment to which an organism originally adapted diminish the organism’s fitness." (Darwinian bee-keeping: lessons from the wild)

It isn't simply about V. destructor, it's about bee-health in general. The way it is idealised is that we can't keep our bees in the way they live in the wild...even Tom Seeley doesn't do that. But we can think about trying to use alternatives or modifications to our ways of beekeeping, guided by the ways that bees choose or are forced to choose naturally.

No-one has to take any notice of what he has found. I was hoping that some people would have already tried to move in that direction and could relate their experiences. But I'm honestly surprised that anyone should apparently dismiss all of his work as just an academic discovery with no practical use.

 

[pargyle]

Can you explain - are you saying that animals don't compete in the wild for food?

No ... what I am saying is that honey bees have little impact on other insects and in particular pollinators in the UK. That the original article that suggested honey bees were affecting the forage available was put together in the USA where beekeeping is very different and where monoculture is practised in a scale that we don't have in the UK. The study to which I assume you allude was put together on false science by people who have an agenda... there is no evidence anywhere to suggest that honey bees are having any effect on the ability of other insects to find sufficient food. Your post... as I suggested originally is unadulterated rubbish.

 

[madasafish]

Would you expect this process to go in the right direction if people indiscriminately treat every hive they have regardless of checks to see if they need it?

As all hives have varroa - with the exception of a few known areas- your question is meaningless.

 

[Boston Bees]

No ... what I am saying is that honey bees have little impact on other insects and in particular pollinators in the UK. That the original article that suggested honey bees were affecting the forage available was put together in the USA where beekeeping is very different and where monoculture is practised in a scale that we don't have in the UK. The study to which I assume you allude was put together on false science by people who have an agenda... there is no evidence anywhere to suggest that honey bees are having any effect on the ability of other insects to find sufficient food. Your post... as I suggested originally is unadulterated rubbish.

I know that it is deeply uncomfortable for beekeepers (including myself) to think that they might be causing problems for other insect species - why I suspect may explain the vehemence of your response - but the truth is we don't know for sure either way. There are certainly studies - more than a single US one, certainly - which suggest an effect exists. For example:

Wild pollinator activity negatively related to honey bee colony densities in urban context (plos.org)

However, it is true that a review of previous studies (from a wide range of countries, though mainly from the US and Europe), carried out in 2017, found an inclusive picture.

Do managed bees have negative effects on wild bees?: A systematic review of the literature (plos.org)

(If you skip to the "Discussion" section you get the summary)

So ... work in progress, but perhaps too early to call anything "unadulterated rubbish"?