Do you ever get the feeling you just been used?

[Chris Luck]

I wonder if people would be less kneejerk about oxalic if it was called 'rhubarb extract', and not 'acid'?

Trickling rhubarb extract on bees sounds much more homeopathic and homely.

I can't speak for others but it would make no difference to me.

Incidentally I recommend looking up the meaning of "homoeopathic" it has nothing to do with the chemical nature of the substance but it's dilution therefore you can get extremely toxic substances in homoeopathic dilutions.

Perhaps you would care to drink some oxalic acid or rub it in your eyes as you clearly think it harmless?

Chris

 

[alldigging]

I wonder if people would be less kneejerk about oxalic if it was called 'rhubarb extract', and not 'acid'?

Trickling rhubarb extract on bees sounds much more homeopathic and homely.

Not if it's just rhubarb extract and not rhubarb extract and sugar. Makes your teeth squeak just thinking about it.

 

[MandF]

I can't speak for others but it would make no difference to me.

Incidentally I recommend looking up the meaning of "homoeopathic" it has nothing to do with the chemical nature of the substance but it's dilution therefore you can get extremely toxic substances in homoeopathic dilutions.

Perhaps you would care to drink some oxalic acid or rub it in your eyes as you clearly think it harmless?

Chris

It is a natural product, but like a lot of natural products, if you expose yourself to too much of it, it will do damage. As you just said, "you can get extremely toxic substances in homeopathic dilutions".

I didnt say it was harmless, if it was harmless in the concentrations we are talking about then it wouldnt kill mites.

But I do think people have a kneejerk reaction to it because it is called acid.

Lots of people dont think twice about exposing their bees to thymol, yet baulk at dripping "acid" on them. For example. That was my point.

Oxalic acid comes from rhubarb, and I love a little oxalic acid and crumble after fish and chips and lashings of sodium chloride and acetic acid.

Having said that, I wouldnt want to pour salt into my eyes, or indeed fish or chips.

 

[MandF]

I can't speak for others but it would make no difference to me.

Incidentally I recommend looking up the meaning of "homoeopathic" it has nothing to do with the chemical nature of the substance but it's dilution therefore you can get extremely toxic substances in homoeopathic dilutions.

Perhaps you would care to drink some oxalic acid or rub it in your eyes as you clearly think it harmless?

Chris

Oh, and not wishing to drag the thread off into semantics, did I not say that trickling rhubarb extract SOUNDS homeopathic? Ie sounds like it might be "extremely toxic substances in tree hugger friendly dilution"?

I did.

 

[davnig]

Incidentally I recommend looking up the meaning of "homoeopathic" it has nothing to do with the chemical nature of the substance but it's dilution therefore you can get extremely toxic substances in homoeopathic dilutions.

Chris

they may be toxic in some form but i doubt that any homeopathic dilutions are since all they are is water when you get down to it!

 

[Ely]

There's plenty of research available about the treatment of oxalic acid. Takes the guess work out of how it affects your bees

 

[Chris Luck]

they may be toxic in some form but i doubt that any homeopathic dilutions are since all they are is water when you get down to it!

Quite BUT it was the use of the word homoeopathic that I was referring to. I full well understand the methodology involved.

Personally, as is well known, I don't use anything in my hives or on my bees so sounding better is neither here nor there.

Ooop's, I do use frames in most of them, nearly opened the door to any other pedants besides myself there.

Chris

 

[jd101k2000]

People's perceptions are often guided by marketing. For instance, 'contains only natural minerals and plant extracts' sounds better than 'contains arsenic (a natural mineral) and strychnine (a plant extract)'.

The real question is did the oxalic acid contribute to the problem or were the yuppie bees only looking to upgrade their real estate and the oxalic acid was neither here nor there?



I must admit that I would feel used in that situation. I would be tempted to try something different next time unless an experienced bee keeper, who I trusted, said that I had done everything right and was just unlucky.

 

[Chris Luck]

The odd thing in this instance is the time span before the bees absconded, something I have never known happen after the first 36 hours.

Anyone that has tried on numerous occasions and in numerous situations to find a way to get bees to leave a cavity where ever that may be after a day or two has passed following their arrival will know they don't budge - so something was clearly not right.

Bees start to draw comb or tidy up old comb within an hour or two of arrival, nectar and sometimes pollen if mated queen will be brought in within 24 hours; Once this has started they are at home.

Chris

 

[Outlander]

The oxalic was made up using 1:1 syrup and sold for the purpose that I used it for. So far I have lost this large swarm which left after four days of hiving it, I also lost a small cast swarm untreated last week which had been left in the swarm box over night as it was far to late to hive them and they had left the next morning just as I was about to hive them.

To answer your questioned earlier (ican) yes I always go back and pick up after dark and when it is not possible to leave the box safely I have been known to stay with it or just return and take any small cluster that had returned. I may not have been keeping as long as some but I have also met people that have been keeping for five years or so that I would not trust with a wormery. I love my bees and I am also not phased by bees though I do treat them with healthy respect. I am lucky to have a great friend Village Girl, and we do the bees together and having someone such as her to bounce ideas of has made us both confident in our handling of bees. Something needs doing we get on and sort it out and don’t faff about. As I said, some I would not trust with a wormery.

 

[itma]

From what I've seen on here, you two are pretty damn good at taking swarms!

This time something odd happened.
The question comes down to what would be worth doing differently next time.
IMHO. the megaswarm had not "unloaded" (or used up) its onboard travelling stores - so it had the potential, the possibility, of moving on.
And whether or not they took umbrage at the Oxalic, they still had the capability of moving out. And they did.

Rather than criticising, I'm trying to figure out what can be learned form the experience.
By giving them wax to draw, you are forcing them to unload.
And once they have used up their onboard stores, they cannot afford to try and abscond.
So once they have unloaded, and committed to staying, treating with Oxalic won't send them off (even if they don't like it) because they don't have enough fuel to set up home a second time.
So, I'm thinking that if there was any problem with the Oxalic treatment, it was that it was too soon, for a big swarm (so with lots of stores), because they still had lots of stores, because they hadn't really drawn any wax.
That I'm thinking is the lesson to be learned - until they have unloaded, they aren't settled, and need to be respected.

 

[Chris Luck]

. As I said, some I would not trust with a wormery.

Too true and to be honest I wouldn't trust anyone with my bees;

Chris

 

[Outlander]

From what I've seen on here, you two are pretty damn good at taking swarms!

This time something odd happened.
The question comes down to what would be worth doing differently next time.
IMHO. the megaswarm had not "unloaded" (or used up) its onboard travelling stores - so it had the potential, the possibility, of moving on.
And whether or not they took umbrage at the Oxalic, they still had the capability of moving out. And they did.

Rather than criticising, I'm trying to figure out what can be learned form the experience.
By giving them wax to draw, you are forcing them to unload.
And once they have used up their onboard stores, they cannot afford to try and abscond.
So once they have unloaded, and committed to staying, treating with Oxalic won't send them off (even if they don't like it) because they don't have enough fuel to set up home a second time.
So, I'm thinking that if there was any problem with the Oxalic treatment, it was that it was too soon, for a big swarm (so with lots of stores), because they still had lots of stores, because they hadn't really drawn any wax.
That I'm thinking is the lesson to be learned - until they have unloaded, they aren't settled, and need to be respected.

I’m with you itma on this one, what you said in this post makes sense. I think a combination of drawn not foundation the treatment maybe to early nothing to occupy them. Be interesting to have a record of swarms that take off again and compare.

 

[VEG]

Sometimes outlander they just plain dont want to stay

 

[Outlander]

Sometimes outlander they just plain dont want to stay

It was a shame, nice lot of bees, mind you I would have been upset if they were mine originally and I had of lost them. Must have been a big hive crammed packed.

 

[For want of a better word]

As I said, some I would not trust with a wormery.................... Charles Darwin would possibly be in full agreement with you over that statement!

( But please do not put Rhubarb leaves in with them... they may abscond !)