Difficulty drawing foundationless comb

[echidna]

Hello. I'm using foundationless frames in my supers. I have some that were partially drawn last year and I added them back on a double brood colony a week ago. There is a strong flow on and I thought they'd be nicely drawn when I checked yesterday. However, the bees had filled emerged areas of the brood nest with nectar and done nothing in the super. If they don't use the super, I assume they are going to run out of space and swarm.
Does anyone have an advice on why they might be reluctant and what to do to encourage them to finish drawing the partially drawn foundationless super frames?
Thanks.

 

[pargyle]

Have you got a queen exlcuder between the brood box and the super ? If so, remove it.

More importantly, it's still quite early in the season... how many frames of brood do you have in the hive ? There may be a flow on but if there are not enough young bees to form the wax they won't be able to draw fresh comb and they will fill existing comb - and if you have a QE in place it may discourage them from storing in the super - preferring to add it next to the brood in an arc.

I don't put a super on until I have at least 7 or 8 frames of brood and my hives are 14 x 12's.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes, take the QX off. Last year I had problems with all my colonies backfilling the brood nest.

 

[echidna]

There is a queen excluder so I will remove that, thanks Pargyle.
I never know when people say 'frames of brood' if they mean 'frames with brood on' or add up all the fractions of frames to give a total. There are 12 frames with brood on across the two boxes, but the amount of brood on each varies from about 2/3rds to 1/5th. (For some reason she's just laying on the front portion of each frame, with the back third being stores.) The rest is now full of pollen and nectar, apart from the outermost sides which they seem not to like in the wooden hive.
That's a good point about the young bees. I hadn't thought of that as a factor. I was just thinking if they don't do it while the cherry blossom and OSR are out, they won't do it at all. Maybe the early timing of the peak flow here is a reason to rethink using foundationless frames since I don't want to stimulate them with syrup. I'll see how they get on this week without the qx.
Thanks Pargyle.

 

[Erichalfbee]

A frame of brood is brood covering most of it

 

[Finman]

The colony is not big enough to occupye the super box.

 

[magor]

hi am also new to foundationless(so may am wrong and here are more experienced with it) and also had some difficulties of how to make super frames them draw

what i did was to give each time one inside the brood box next to a frame of brood and after them draw it give another and then another...etc until i got around 4 or 5 and then i put the super box underneath brood box(nadir) no QExcluder and when them ve 7-8 brood frames but much more population already(tight colonies) and fill it with foundationless frames between those super frames where drawn(am running half and brood on 9 frames each) but had to feed syrup also despite the flow outside(1/1 syrup with a bit more water maybe 1.5/1 something around that 1-1.5 / 1)

what you describe about your brood frames that have most brood in the front part of fames and back them fill stores well beess prefer lay close the entrance and put stores away from it (i see it happens mostly on winter? )and maybe that means that Q isnt yet on her full lay strength or population not yet large enough, not yet much nurse bees or and temperatures issues........ for me this spring with national boxes i run them on warm way and didnt notice this spring such thing but will ve to wait overwinter with this format so as see how them act and where them will sellect to put brood and where stores according the entrance(air flow)

 

[pargyle]

There is a queen excluder so I will remove that, thanks Pargyle.
I never know when people say 'frames of brood' if they mean 'frames with brood on' or add up all the fractions of frames to give a total. There are 12 frames with brood on across the two boxes, but the amount of brood on each varies from about 2/3rds to 1/5th. (For some reason she's just laying on the front portion of each frame, with the back third being stores.) The rest is now full of pollen and nectar, apart from the outermost sides which they seem not to like in the wooden hive.
That's a good point about the young bees. I hadn't thought of that as a factor. I was just thinking if they don't do it while the cherry blossom and OSR are out, they won't do it at all. Maybe the early timing of the peak flow here is a reason to rethink using foundationless frames since I don't want to stimulate them with syrup. I'll see how they get on this week without the qx.
Thanks Pargyle.

It is sometimes tough in areas where forage is limited by the monoculture we often see in our agricultural landscapes. My location is principally urban but there are lots of nectar/pollen bearing sources within flying distance from about now right through to November - so, whilst I don't get massive one source flows I do get an all season long source of forage. It helps the bees to draw comb more or less anytime they need it - but I feel for some members who face areas that are more or less bee food deserts for much of the season.

But ... even in these areas the bees survive and whilst you may not be filling five or six supers you may be surprised at what they can achieve. I don't think it makes a great deal of difference being foundation free - if they don't need the comb they won't draw it out whethere there is foundation there or not.

What it does mean for you is that you should guard your drawn frames fastidiously, look after the super frames and re-use them, extend the use of your brood frames for as long as you can (I have brood frames that are 7 or 8 years old in some hives and they are still used). The less you change the frames - within reason - the less work they have to do to draw new comb.

 

[Finman]

Put the new box under the brood box. So heat doest not escape up. Bees enlarge the hive downwards in nature.

 

[echidna]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I'll see what it's looking like at the next inspection and then decide whether to alter how I'm providing the frames or just wait until the colony has built up more.