Defensive Colony

[pargyle]

I agree, it is foolhardy and I would not encourage anyone to do it but the truth is in the last 7 years of beekeeping and collecting many swarms I have only been stung a dozen or so times so have become lax!

When you have gentle, well behaved, bees it's easy to get lulled into a sense of complacency ... and thats when the little beggars catch you out. Most of my stings have been when 'I was only just ....' without any PPE.

 

[Rory Fields]

I’ve just never encountered a bivouacked swarm in public.
I’d do it again. It feels like a warm furry animal

Me too, it's quite pleasant, although collected a swarm yesterday (have collected more than I can recall over the years) and they immediately got 10 + stings to my hands on getting near them, great weather and they'd not been disturbed by anyone I was told so was glad I had the beesuit with me- every time's a lesson, have never had that before and beesuit was clean and unscented etc so bees remain as enigmatic and inexplicable as ever, part of why I never tire of them

 

[Chunky Plumpy]

Maybe so, but the swarm will find a new home and as a colony, its defensive nature will now cause a problem for someone else.

Hi. I did think about that @ericbeaumont but thought the worst case was a lovely genetically superior colony would have swarmed?

Putting aside that I’m not sure they did swarm as I’m still waiting before going back in to check, I caged the old queen a day or so before dispatching her and then managed the queen cells carefully on the original frames.

I was careful not to disturb the swapped in frame so if I missed a cell it would very likely have been from there, and therefore not angry. Is that sound logic? Cheers, CP.

P.S. several more attacks and people getting stung but I checked the stores situation today and genuinely think the tone was better, suggesting the old angry mob might finally be dying off!!

 

[Chunky Plumpy]

Hello all, thought I'd post a final update before opening a new thread as it really couldn't have gone any worse; complete disaster.

As we know (recap) I made the nuc with the nice queen, who is still alive and well in the flourishing little box. I selected a queen cell on two frames form the nice hive and swapped one frame into the angry mob whilst leaving the other as the only cell in the nice hive. I went back in after 4-5 days and squished all the other cells and then waited.

Since then 4 weeks have elapsed and the hives have been very busy on a generous flow, filling supers but also the brood boxes because there is no brood. There are no signs of life in either hive aside the remaining bees making honey, loads of new nectar stores and pollen where there was once brood. Same in both hives which I must admit is very disappointing. To top it off the remaining bees as as nasty as ever once disturbed and the last two hours we've had several angry bee incidents/attacks. Suffice to say the other members of the family have called it a day on that hive and insisting we let it 'go'.

Shame, went from two large hives down to a nuc and now I need to get that queen back into the original hive safely whilst harvesting the honey from both hives before they become too weak and get robbed

Thanks for all your input and help, I stand by what I did but cannot understand why both new queens, probably more than 2 given the 3 'swarms', just absconded when they were so healthy before. Now off to create a new newbie thread to find out how best to introduce the original queen back into a large hive full of stores and old lady bees!! Cheers, CP.

 

[Sutty]

Has the queen cell emerged?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

you expected a result after only four weeks? Still early days for the new queen to get mated
Then lay
Then for her brood to develop
then emerge.
beekeeping is 30% patience,30% guesswork, 30% luck and 15% good mathematics

 

[Chunky Plumpy]

Hi. Yes @Sutty the queen emerged leaving the cell empty, as it was previously sealed, and there was defo another (on the same frame fortunately) which might explain the 'air show' a couple of weeks ago. So I'm confident a queen(s) emerged.

I did have a good look @jenkinsbrynmair and saw no evidence at all of new life but then again I'm not sure what to expect after 4 weeks. Having read a few articles they suggested things would have happened before now and to expect evidence of a new queen by virtue of eggs, larvae and even brood. I've no issue leaving it longer, I'm not going to try and salvage the angry mob and quite honestly I'm tired of running away or being stung so more than happy for nature to take its course.

I'm just worried about the other 'nice' hive, since the flow is still on here (Oldbury) and the brood box being used as well for stores; can the brood box not become honey-bound? The bees are doing a fine job of filling a third super so perhaps they can move stores up but I would like to salvage the crop if nothing else, should they have both failed.

So do I leave them alone for another couple of weeks or just resume weekly checks? I shall harvest some of the honey next week anyway and can check again but I wonder if I should just harvest and leave the brood boxes well alone? Cheers, CP.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So do I leave them alone for another couple of weeks or just resume weekly checks

Having read a few articles they suggested things would have happened before now and to expect evidence of a new queen by virtue of eggs, larvae and even brood.

In an ideal world maybe, unfortunately most of us live in the real world, not some Lala land that some of these 'experts' float around in
leave well alone - fiddling around when queens are on mating flights can spell disaster

 

[Sutty]

If the brood box for the nice hive is getting honeybound then you were perhaps late in giving them a super.
I'd wait a bit longer and see.

 

[Mabee]

I’d pop a frame or two of foundation in there, if there is a flow on they’ll draw it out and the queen will have somewhere to lay. Also make sure they have plenty space above to store honey.

Or remove a frame or two of honey from brood box, extract and give back, giving the queen, assuming there is one, room to lay.

 

[Chunky Plumpy]

Hi all, there is a third super on, but right up top as I just keep stacking (first full season starting only last June so didn’t know any different!).

It was empty when all this began a month ago and now drawn and filling nicely but not sure if being above two completely full/capped supers means a ‘slow brood box’ would result in the space below getting used simply because it’s easier than going ‘upstairs’?

This is the tricky bit I guess, all part of learning. It is tempting to go back in at the weekend to make space but then my gut is saying just forget about them for two weeks and give them a chance… I’m probably over thinking it.

I shall leave well alone for two more weeks, and then if there is any signs of new life I can worry about making space then; the bees probably have more experience of that than I do anyway Cheers, CP.

 

[Sutty]

If the top super is busy with bees you can put another one on without disturbing the brood area

 

[Chunky Plumpy]

Hello all,

I thought I should return to post a final update, which is good news. I performed full inspections of both hives today having only peeked in to see if there was any new signs of life last week whilst clearing off some very full supers. There is plenty of brood across 6 frames or more, larvae and lots of worker bees in both hives.

Astonishingly I saw both queens which I didn't expect given that sometimes I can't find a marked queen but there they were looking very well. The thing I found most impressive was how both colonies had cleared out stores from the brood box other than the end frames and moved a lot upstairs into empty supers I'd put on the week prior; or eaten it?!. Busy bees indeed.

So after all this time and a little noob panic 2-3 weeks ago, I have two very strong looking hives with 2023 queens. I'm almost happy... almost. Sadly the temperament has not improved, it was not pleasant inspecting the second hive and to be fair the first dispatched a few bees to ping off my veil which was disappointing.

I'm going to trawl the previous threads to see if there is a chance it is me, not so much heavy handling but perhaps the hundreds of bee stings in my gloves and suit might be setting them off. I shall also double check for mites or other possible causes of upset as it does seem strange little has changed after going to all this effort to requeen an angry hive.

Most importantly, thank you all for your help as I learned a lot in a very short period of time and wouldn't have been able to do it without people chiming in. Cheers, CP.

 

[Sutty]

Wash the suit & if you can't wash the gloves get rid of them and try something else, marigolds maybe.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Most importantly, thank you all for your help as I learned a lot in a very short period of time and wouldn't have been able to do it without people chiming in. Cheers, CP.

Great to hear. It’s what the forum is good at. So pleased you had a good outcome

 

[Chunky Plumpy]

Hello all,

Sadly despite my best efforts the angry colony of bees must go; if anyone wants what appear to be a healthy but 'arsey' colony then feel free to contact me and come get the brood frames else they'll be getting burnt just in case disease was the cause of the temperament.

I cannot work out what is going on, fresh marigolds and a new clean suit meant hive 1 was normal but I abandoned the inspection of hive 2 as it was ridiculous. At only 4 frames in I decided this is pointless, they have got to go.

When I say go I mean destroy. As I type this message we're 'prisoners' in our home whilst the bees patrol some 40+ foot area outside after opening the hive. It would be irresponsible to gift this colony to anyone who didn't know the reason they are going. Destroying them seems like the right thing to do as the drones will only pass on the angry gene.

This post was simply to 'advertise' that as a novice they are no longer safe for me to fix/tend and a danger to my family, but a veteran 'bee whisperer' might have better luck... so you're welcome to them!

I shall use soapy water or a cup of petrol, just need to read up on that in other threads to work out the cleanest and quickest route so they don't suffer longer than they must. It is a shame but I'd rather bring on a new colony somewhere else than inflict them on my family any longer.

Cheers, CP.

 

[Sutty]

I'd suggest the soapy water so you can reuse the boxes and frames after a rinse. Disease doesn't seem likely unless you spot something.
Put a mesh on top in place if the crown board and wait until evening so they are all in. Close the entrance if on an OMF, block it with more mesh if solid floor.
Pour copious soapy water systematically through the top mesh to wet everything properly.
Leave any sealed brood long enough to chill before reusing the frames.
It a shame you weren't able to calm them by requeening - I wonder if you missed a "native" queen cell & they requeened with one of their own!

 

[Chunky Plumpy]

I'd suggest the soapy water so you can reuse the boxes and frames after a rinse. Disease doesn't seem likely unless you spot something.
Put a mesh on top in place if the crown board and wait until evening so they are all in. Close the entrance if on an OMF, block it with more mesh if solid floor.
Pour copious soapy water systematically through the top mesh to wet everything properly.
Leave any sealed brood long enough to chill before reusing the frames.
It a shame you weren't able to calm them by requeening - I wonder if you missed a "native" queen cell & they requeened with one of their own!

Thank you @Sutty , I have posted a free angry colony add on the forum and had some interest so maybe I can avoid it but I was wondering how I’d prevent them escaping and the mesh is an obvious and simple answer to all my questions. Thanks a lot, CP.

PS I checked long and hard for rouge queen cells but it’s always possible I got another angry queen… will certainly learn from all this

 

[Erichalfbee]

I’ve had to kill a CBPV colony this year. A mesh travel screen placed on top with a follow up visit in the evening to pour a bucket of soapy water between the frames works well

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I'd suggest the soapy water so you can reuse the boxes and frames after a rinse.

you can use the boxes regardless (a few weeks out in the weather, or a good flaming in the case of disease/cleaning will sort them) as for the frames, many would be packed with brood, so no great loss, just put them on the bonefire