Creamed honey separated ?

[testka]

Hi,
Just taken out a jar of home creamed honey from early on in the year. It seems to have separated and smells a bit fermented. Any ideas why this would happen. It appears to be 21% water content in a refractometer.

Is better to chuck it out now and any idea how I can stop this happening again. It was my first attempt at creaming.

Thanks.

 

[VEG]

What was the reading before you "creamed" it?

 

[beekake]

I've had the same problem this year, with honey ranging from 18% to 19.5% water (I.e. below the magic 20%). Same process followed as Shot a 96 yesterday in my final warm up roundin previous years, so this has had me scratching my head. Perhaps there was more yeast in the honey I extracted this year.

Does creaming help to activate the naturally occurring yeasts in some way?

 

[oliver90owner]

Borderline - for fermentation - honey needs to be creamed very carefully.

It is a simple fact that the crystals actually contain less water and the residual is trapped in the inter crystalline spaces. All well and good unless the interstitial water now actually dilutes the already 'close to fermentation' liquid fraction.

OK? Problem of why sorted.

How to prevent? OSR granulates very quickly, normally. Apart from checking the water content is low with a refractometer, allowing to granulate initially will always give a good indication of potential later fermentation. Dry 'powdery' surface - OK; greasy looking surface - beware; wet surface - trouble definitely looming, as that liquid will ferment.

Simple as that.

RAB

 

[enrico]

Sorry for asking but I am interested, so RAB, is it fermenting? And if so is it only good for the dustbin?

 

[beekake]

Hi RAB,

That's really helpful. I've been thinking back over how the honey was processed this year and trying to identify what went wrong. Your surface inspection suggestion is right on the money!

Cheers.

 

[oliver90owner]

so RAB, is it fermenting?

Don't ask me! Directing your question to the OP would be better - he has the stuff. Reiterating his post is the best I can do.

Think about it simply; 'smells a bit fermented' and '21% water content' are the main clues to use in coming to any conclusion.

 

[itma]

... It appears to be 21% water content in a refractometer.

... It was my first attempt at creaming.

Ummm. How did you "cream" it?


If the remaining liquid has risen to 21% after crystallising, then it wasn't much short when it started.
But if it was 21% to start with …

 

[testka]

Hi
Apologies for bit replying earlier. I'm not sure if the water content before but the frames were capped. I have however found today the osr used as the seed has started to fermented so suspect this was the cause. The osr was purchased as no osr crop nearby.

 

[YorkshireBees]

Hi
Apologies for bit replying earlier. I'm not sure if the water content before but the frames were capped. I have however found today the osr used as the seed has started to fermented so suspect this was the cause. The osr was purchased as no osr crop nearby.

*Note for future reference*
When dealing (or in this case purchasing) OSR for the purpose of making soft set, allow the OSR to stand in a sealed bucket for a couple of weeks. It will set rock hard like concrete, if it doesn't then I would suspect that the water content was too high at extraction! Once you have the 'lump of concrete in a bucket' it is a case of gently warming the bucket in a warming cabinet over a few days to get it to the stage for use in making soft set.

 

[testka]

Thank you YorkshireBees will do this the next time around.

 

[psafloyd]

Thank, RAB. Very useful post.

Borderline - for fermentation - honey needs to be creamed very carefully.

It is a simple fact that the crystals actually contain less water and the residual is trapped in the inter crystalline spaces. All well and good unless the interstitial water now actually dilutes the already 'close to fermentation' liquid fraction.

OK? Problem of why sorted.

How to prevent? OSR granulates very quickly, normally. Apart from checking the water content is low with a refractometer, allowing to granulate initially will always give a good indication of potential later fermentation. Dry 'powdery' surface - OK; greasy looking surface - beware; wet surface - trouble definitely looming, as that liquid will ferment.

Simple as that.

RAB

 

[psafloyd]

Sorry for asking but I am interested, so RAB, is it fermenting? And if so is it only good for the dustbin?

Surely it is perfect for making mead as it has already started to ferment?

 

[oliver90owner]

Surely it is perfect for making mead as it has already started to ferment?

Not perfect, perhaps. The wrong type of yeasts may have been at work, but not seriously so. I kill off the wild yeasts before fermenting with a known strain with more predictable results.

Could be a lot of mead going on?

Personally, I doubt it was due to the bought-in soft set honey. The fermentation of that should have been rather obvious before using it; it would have been a minority ingredient; and other fairly clear pointers. No, I strongly suspect honey taken before capping would be the culprit. The bees don't get it wrong as they are reliant on it for their survival and have been doing it for millenia and some.

 

[itma]

…
Personally, I doubt it was due to the bought-in soft set honey. ... No, I strongly suspect honey taken before capping would be the culprit. …

I'm going to both disagree and agree!

In order to avoid the stuff setting in the comb, many OSR-honey producers do seem to routinely take their crop well before it is entirely capped.
Now, that might not be a problem if it is checked with a refractometer (or even a 'shake test'') - BUT, excess moisture in bought-in but prematurely harvested OSR honey would be my suggestion for one likely cause of the problem.
And the remainder of the 'seed' fermenting on its own would appear to confirm this.



The now-unusual description 'creamed' has been repeatedly used, but, without the asked-for details of the processing employed, it is impossible to say whether or not that processing might have contributed to the result seen.

 

[wessexmario]

you say there's 21% water content... is that for both layers of honey, the set and the runny?

As it's separated so distinctly, that would indicate different density so possibly a different water content of each layer.

 

[itma]

you say there's 21% water content... is that for both layers of honey, the set and the runny?

As it's separated so distinctly, that would indicate different density so possibly a different water content of each layer.

The crystals have sunk to the bottom, that's all.

 

[oliver90owner]

Mario,

Read my post #4 in the thread.

RAB

 

[wessexmario]

thanks, makes sense now.