Compulsory registration?

[greatbritishhoney]

Does anyone know what they do in other countries?
I know it is compulsory to register in France. As I understand it you register as a beekeeper and must also register your apiary.
Compulsion to register an apiary could theoretically make it difficult for hive theives to have covert apiaries where stolen hives are taken for dispersal.
(n.b - I'm still playing devil's advocate on this one).

 

[Ellem]

Compulsion to register an apiary could theoretically make it difficult for hive theives to have covert apiaries where stolen hives are taken for dispersal.
(n.b - I'm still playing devil's advocate on this one).

Only trouble I can think of is that if they are going to just have a covert apiary, they may be able to do so regardless (unless all apiary sites have to have a huge neon sign above them as well - so if there is no sign but there are bees going back & forth there may be an illegal hive there )

Those who wish to operate outside of the law (such as with theft) will do so regardless of regulations put in place IMHO

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Those who wish to operate outside of the law (such as with theft) will do so regardless of regulations put in place IMHO

True, but that doesn't mean we abandon all attempts to stop them.
Murderers will always murder but we don't shrug our shoulders and make murder legal

The need to register an apiary could just put that extra bit of pressure on them. A potential large fine for not registering could also make them think twice about whether it's worthwhile.

 

[sugarbush]

Wow, this is a hot topic.

Being from a place where registration has been required for at least 100 years time, I will weigh in on it.

You guys are getting worked up over nothing, Registration here in the US is a great tool for keeping track of diseases, annual losses, and what our impact on the states economy is. It is an easy way for the state to collect data. I don't know how much you guys have in government subsidies for agriculture, but here in the US it is heavily subsidized. As a beekeeper I don't see the money directly, but the benefits trickle down. If our state makes X amount of money off of the bee industry then university in our state receives X amount of dollars for research. That employs X amount of people doing the research and teaches X amount of students about beekeeping. I hire a student taught on this federal money for the summer, I gain an employee who is directly able to relate what they have learned on to me etc...

It also allows me to run a quick internet search and find out how saturated an area is with hives.... For example I may want to place a yard in Bantam CT. I can search the state records and find out exactly how many hives are in Bantam CT. Then I can calculate hive density per square mile and decide without going there if I want to put hives there or not. They also keep track of hives destroyed by bears in an area which is very important information for me to have.

As far as hive theft goes that is such a rare occurrence here I think hive registration has no impact on that. Also there is the budget issue. There is no enforcement of the registration laws and if somebody doesn't want to register their hives, they don't with absolutely no consequences. I frequently forget to update my hive numbers when I have gains and losses.

 

[MartinL]

Wow, this is a hot topic.

Being from a place where registration has been required for at least 100 years time, I will weigh in on it.

You guys are getting worked up over nothing, Registration here in the US is a great tool for keeping track of diseases, annual losses, and what our impact on the states economy is. It is an easy way for the state to collect data.


MMMM

America, Land of the free? ! ! !

 

[sugarbush]

 

[drstitson]

Italy - compulsory - registration of beekeepers and apiary sites, livestock movement paperwork needed for migratory beekeeping, annual census of hive numbers.

hives must be numbered with "flock" number and only moveable frame hives allowed.

fines for non compliance with all of the above.

BTW no-one think it bizarre that we in UK "happily" accept registration and movement controls on livestock that is "easily" contained/controlled whilst allowing uncontrolled raising/keeping of a type of livetsock that is free roaming and able to spread disease so much easier.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

I've just returned from a holiday to France (staying with a family member who is also a beekeeper out there).
Whilst driving around I noticed three hives right by the side of the road, painted red, in full view. In the UK they would have been swiped within hours.

 

[sugarbush]

In the UK they would have been swiped within hours.

So theft is a big problem in the UK? Can you not get GPS?

We can buy a frame here that has a GPS tracker embedded in it. You put one in a single hive and if the hives get stolen you can track on your computer exactly where they went.... A few people get caught and prosecuted and hive thefts stop.

 

[porterswoods]

And we'll also get a single payment scheme bung.

Don't forget that you would need to comply with cross compliance to get your 'bung'

 

[beesknee]

What are everyone's views on the concept of compulsory registration (as used in many other countries) where all beekeepers have to register with a central body and also mark each hive with a unique code?
I realise this idea is probably abhorrent for many amateur beekeepers but it could be argued that it would be the only effective way of pushing the hive theives out into the open.

this would not come free, would be seen by the government as another way to lever more money out of us,more certificates (at a price) to say you are competent, which are not worth the paper they are writen on, we are already in the possision were we will soon need a certificate to go to the loo,it would not stop theft in my opinion, better spent the money on a tracker device to fit in the hive.
I might add this is just my opinion

 

[Brosville]

I would suggest that any moves towards compulsory registration should be greeted with extreme scepticism - look at the big picture, and the true motivations of many of those pushing for it, and the likely manner in which it would probably be administered. (It may look like a good and sensible idea)
BUT - imagine if it does happen, who'll be administering it? - that'll be the minority (only 40% of beekeepers) association, run by that little coterie of chemical company supporters (like that nice Tim Lovett, who maintains the society's independence by schmoozing for Bayer in Europe).
Compulsory registration to an offshoot of "Big Agrochem. Inc" - nice salaried sinecures for those leading lights administering it - compulsory (paid for) inspections, excuses found for compulsory mass-medication using Big Agrochem products......... wakey, wakey, smell the chemical coffee people!

 

[bruce]

I wonder how big a problem bee-theft really is. It was undoubtedly a shock to some in the bee keeping community when it became widely published (mostly via the on-line social media), but given the thousands of bee keepers in this country I’ve not seen any evidence that they’re experiencing a high percentage of thefts. I suspect I’m more likely to have my house burgled than my bees stolen.

That aside, if people are concerned about having their bees nicked and think that compulsory registration is the answer, it’s worth bearing in mind that people who steal bees or bee equipment are unlikely to register (it’s estimated, for instance, that 2 million car drivers on UK roads are uninsured ).

Perhaps a better approach for those that want it would be to extend bee-base to hold a voluntary registration code that can be marked on equipment. That way equipment located at a particular apiary could be tracked back to a participating owner. Of course, the dedicated thief will remove such markings and replace them with their own. In reality though I suspect that in the same way as a house burglar will prefer a house without an alarm to one with, it will act as an officially sanctioned deterrent.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

That aside, if people are concerned about having their bees nicked and think that compulsory registration is the answer, it’s worth bearing in mind that people who steal bees or bee equipment are unlikely to register (it’s estimated, for instance, that 2 million car drivers on UK roads are uninsured ).

Bruce, I think that's the point. Hive thieves would not register - therefore if the authorities happen across their unregistered apiary then there is automatically a suspicion of guilt.
It's the same with road tax etc - there may well be plenty of people that drive without tax but they are easier to spot and will be automatically prosecuted when they are caught.
The point of compulsory registration (in any setting) is that it draws a clear line between legal and illegal which makes it theoretically easier to investigate and enforce.

 

[Brosville]

Probably best to enforce compulsory registration for gerbils, hamsters and pet fish too....... that'd put paid to thefts and any other nonsense!
Get your registration here - £75 pa per pet. £80 pa for compulsory annual inspection...

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Probably best to enforce compulsory registration for gerbils, hamsters and pet fish too....... that'd put paid to thefts and any other nonsense!
Get your registration here - £75 pa per pet. £80 pa for compulsory annual inspection...

Odd post Brosville. I haven't heard about the great spate of gerbils thefts

I'm not sure why on earth you think the BBKA would play any part in any kind of registration scheme. It would obviously be the responsibility of FERA (like them or loathe them). Just a simple extension of beebase.
There's no reason why it would cost anything. I don't have to pay to register my sheep.


I'll say again for the record, I'm playing devil's advocate here.

 

[MartinL]

Get Real!

Registered cars with complicated anti-theft devices are stolen on an hourly basis around the country every day stripped and sold off as spare parts. Surely if some scumbags decide to steal my hives, registration is not going to be a consideration for them (just another burden for me)?


It is the bees on frames contained within which are the valuable commodity. Are we going to number each individual, no I think not?

We have BeeBase and I am happily registered. I am against compulsory registration, which would only be compulsory for those who are on record already! The remainder would not be compelled to register and thus able to ignore the fees that would inevitably accompany such dictatorial practices.

Is there a bit of a North / South divide going on here? I can only be grateful that the word "MANDATORY" has not crept into this discussion!

 

[bruce]

Well here’s a reality check. UK bee keeping makes an insignificant financial contribution to the UK economy (last defra figures I saw indicated £10m) - other than indirectly through pollination. Stolen bees pollinate just as well as other bees.

There’s no evidence to indicate that bee/bee equipment theft is resulting in significant financial loss to the UK. So a compulsory registration scheme would have to be self funding and would involve an annually escalating fee. People already on Bee-base or members of the BBKA would have no choice but to register and pay up or face receiving a fine through the post – or alternatively get rid of their bees. People not on the register will likely as not stay off the register to avoid the fee.

So the vast majority of beekeepers who are not members of the BBKA and/or are not on Bee-Base would go ‘underground’ – which would reduce disease reporting (which I’d suggest is more important than worrying about the odd theft).

We used to have to pay a licence fee to keep a dog. That was abandoned as too expensive and unenforceable. I suspect compulsory bee registration would create a similar administrative white elephant at time when we’ve trying to reduce red tape and central control - ie it doesn't fit in with the current Administrations political intent - so don't expect it to happen.

 

[sugarbush]

this would not come free, would be seen by the government as another way to lever more money out of us,more certificates (at a price) to say you are competent, which are not worth the paper they are writen on, we are already in the possision were we will soon need a certificate to go to the loo,it would not stop theft in my opinion, better spent the money on a tracker device to fit in the hive.

It is free here, cost us nothing to register our yards. The inspections are also free. Some states have a paid bee inspector, but it is usually a part time job attached to the job description of a Entomologist at a state run college.

We used to have to pay a licence fee to keep a dog. That was abandoned as too expensive and unenforceable. .

We also have dog registration, It is run town by town and they have no problems enforcing it. Many towns have an elected official as a dog catcher and if you don't register your dog this official comes out and gives you a warning... if you continue to unregister your dog they pick it up and destroy it. I am not sure what useful purpose it serves however.

If this compulsory registration is an issue that is threatening you why not do it through your associations on a voluntary bases? Register your hives through your associations, elect an inspector to do inspections as needed and have the association keep track of the information. Then multiple associations could present to their government officials that the government interference is un-needed as you already have a functional program in place.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

If this compulsory registration is an issue that is threatening you why not do it through your associations on a voluntary bases? Register your hives through your associations, elect an inspector to do inspections as needed and have the association keep track of the information. Then multiple associations could present to their government officials that the government interference is un-needed as you already have a functional program in place.

We already have a voluntary registration system called beebase administered by FERA (Food & Environmental Research Agency) but uptake is far from universal. There are many UK beekeepers who would run a mile before registering. They are often the same people would refuse to join an association.

My main reason for raising this issue for discussion is because it is clear to me that the hive thefts are being conducted by reasonably experienced beekeepers who have an outlet for selling on the bees that they steal.
In most other industries / situations the key way to separate out the honest from the dishonest is some kind of registration system. If done correctly it can make it very difficult for a criminal to conduct his/her operations without having to go to great lengths to maintain secrecy.
For example, if I wanted to sell alcohol without a licence it would be very hard for me to do business covertly without drawing a fair amount of suspicion to myself. It would also be easy for the authorities to deal with me because it would be a simple question of yes or no rather than a detailed investigation. Add to that the large fine and you've got your deterrant.

Not perfect by any means but also not as expensive and unworkable as some might think. The world is full of examples of effective registration systems.

I suspect one of the reasons why none of these thefts ever results in an arrest is because the police are powerless to investigate because there is no traceability of beekeepers or apiaries.