Clean Polynuc hive

[astabada]

Hello everyone,
I recently moved my bees from a poly nuc hive into a standard (wooden) one and I was wondering how I can remove all the sticky propolis left there, any suggestion? I found in a previous thread that washing soda and hot water could be a solution, but isn't it somehow toxic? What is the proportion between water and soda?

 

[alanf]

I was wondering how I can remove all the sticky propolis left there, any suggestion? ... What is the proportion between water and soda?

The question was asked to an RBI inspector when I was present a few days ago - specifically while going through a 6 frame poly nuc. He said use washing soda solution to scrub out before the next occupants but it needs a more thorough scrub than wood because it's not possible to use a flame as an additional sterilising step.

As to proportion, the only mention in the FERA leaflet is "fairly concentrated" at 1Kg to 5 litres of water with a dash of washing up liquid - presumably as a wetting agent.

https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/beebase/downloadDocument.cfm?id=423

 

[Finman]

The "fairly concentrated" at 1Kg to 5 litres of water with a dash of washing up liquid - presumably as a wetting agent.

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That is 20%.

What ever UK has decided, Europe uses 3%-6% lye solution.

It depends on heat of solution. 60 C water melts the wax and lye turns it soap and it doe not attach again.

I use in small cases Cillit Bang spray from Lidl. It works well in 20C temperature.


I have only 24 years experience in Polys.

 

[Ruary]

That is 20%.

What ever UK has decided, Europe uses 3%-6% lye solution.

Washing soda is sodium carbonate not sodium hydroxide so a stronger strength would be used.

The advice to sterilise for AFB spores is to clean by scraping, then the washing soda solution to remove final particles of wax / propolis and follow by a 20 minute soak in 0.5% solution of sodium hypochlorite.

 

[Finman]

That is 20%.


The advice to sterilise for AFB spores is to clean by scraping, then the washing soda solution to remove final particles of wax / propolis and follow by a 20 minute soak in 0.5% solution of sodium hypochlorite.

nOW IT WAS ONLY IDEA TO GET OFF PROPOLIS.

AFB is another issue.

HOT water loosens resing and wax. And using a little bit brains...

Scraping poly box will spoil the surface. They will not stand 24 years like my boxes.

 

[farbee]

Lye or sodium hydroxide is a strong alkali so treat with care as it is corrosive.

Sodium hypochlorite is bleach and would be the way I would go.

 

[Finman]

Lye or sodium hydroxide is a strong alkali so treat with care as it is corrosive.
.

I do not know what it corrodes. Not at least plastic.

MY mother laundred white clothes 50 years ago. Everybody knew that it is dangerous stuff. It was called "lye boiling".

Old loungring tools

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

I do not know what it corrodes. Not at least plastic.

MY mother laundred white clothes 50 years ago. Everybody knew that it is dangerous stuff. It was called "lye boiling".

You didn't inhale it, by any chance, Finman?

Dusty

 

[Finman]

You didn't inhale it, by any chance, Finman?

Dusty

I have studied chemistry in university.

I have taken care my self. Most dangerous stuff what I have handled was dynamite. We stealed hundreds of kilos it and we mad some experiments in woods.

 

[Finman]

You didn't inhale it, by any chance, Finman?

Dusty

Sure if you boil it. It should be kept just under boiling point.

Yes it feels in lungs and make to caugh.

 

[chrismcd]

Lye or sodium hydroxide is a strong alkali so treat with care as it is corrosive.

Sodium hypochlorite is bleach and would be the way I would go.

Bleach solutions are Sodium hypochlorite stabilised with sodium hydroxide - or to put it another way it is the chlorinated caustic liquor left over from chlorine electrolysis.

For the best value for money buy "Dairy Hypochlorite" from a farm supplies shop - it should be at least 11% chlorine.

 

[Finman]

Bleach solutions are Sodium hypochlorite.

That is NaClO and lye is NaOH. Very different stuff.

Question is not sterilizing but dissolving fat and loosening wax.



That makes dangerous chloride gas. That was not your intention?

 

[farbee]

I have studied chemistry in university.

I have taken care my self. Most dangerous stuff what I have handled was dynamite. We stealed hundreds of kilos it and we mad some experiments in woods.

Why do you always fall back on the I have studied at Uni line.
So have I and I also have a PhD in Chemistry and have published 12 research papers in peer reviewed journals. But this is irrelevant and does not make me always right.

Just because some people did dangerous and sometimes silly things in the past does not make it a good idea.
Marie Curie handed Radium with her bare hand with apparently no problem but in less than a decade she died of cancer.


I would go with Washing soda and bleach. Both are normal houshold chemical as well.

 

[farbee]

No it will not make chlorine!!

If you acidify it the equilbria will shift to the left of equation below and chlorine will be made;

Cl2 + H2O -> HCl + HOCl

In bleach the HCl + HOCl are neutralised by the NaOH.
Chrismcd is basically correct.
Sorry folk this is irrelevant to beekeeping but I cannot let bad chemistry
go unchallenged.
Sorry Finman go back and look at you Uni book again.

 

[chrismcd]

Cleaning and Disinfection

Cheers Farbea

I am a simple biologist, but have worked with a number of Animal Health disinfectants. Perhaps you could correct me, but as I understand it, you need to push the pH to either side of neutral to get a reasonably stable chlorine solution for disinfecting. Acid chlorine and alkaline chlorine solutions differ in their efficacy on various types of organism.

As you probably know, the UK chlorine industry produces lots of waste chlorinated caustic liquor, so we have a cheap bactericidal disinfectant that has sufficient caustic soda/lye to be a useful cleaner in fatty conditions - like dairies. This is a UK product and tends to cause confusion elsewhere, Finman is not the first to have queried just what UK "bleach" is.

The point being that "Dairy Hypo" is a good product for EFB and even AFB disinfection, since I understand that alkaline chlorine is good on bacteria and their spores and the causticity gives a good cleaning action.

Acid chlorine (almost uniquely Virkon S) is a superb viricidal disinfectant but would need to be used at very high rates to do a job on EFB. I believe the NBU had a look at it and reached the same conclusion.

 

[oliver90owner]

Lye or sodium hydroxide is a strong alkali so treat with care as it is corrosive.

Sodium hypochlorite is bleach and would be the way I would go.

Both true but follow Finman's advice. The alkali cleans away the dross and then you can kill any remaining spores with hypochlorite, if you so wish.

Both washing soda and caustic soda are alkaline - the caustic being more so. Hot caustic will destroy most any organic matter there, I would think, washing soda being less effective and certainly needing the bleach to kill off any spores.

Washing soda and hypochlorite is the way to go for anything, apart from AFB, if you are not competent using hot caustic soda.

RAB

 

[farbee]

Lye or sodium hydroxide is a strong alkali so treat with care as it is corrosive.

Sodium hypochlorite is bleach and would be the way I would go.

Both true but follow Finman's advice. The alkali cleans away the dross and then you can kill any remaining spores with hypochlorite, if you so wish.

Both washing soda and caustic soda are alkaline - the caustic being more so. Hot caustic will destroy most any organic matter there, I would think, washing soda being less effective and certainly needing the bleach to kill off any spores.

Washing soda and hypochlorite is the way to go for anything, apart from AFB, if you are not competent using hot caustic soda.


So AFB can withstand bleach.
Interesting. Is there evidence? I would be surprised if there was.

All I would say is please handle caustic soda (sodium hydroxide) with care.

 

[Finman]

.
I have never heard or read that hypochlorite can be used to make soap.


The essential thing is that lye changes wax to soap and it does not touch any more to surfaces.

Further more I do no keep UK as specialist in bekeeping. You are allways 10 years after others and when you shoot, you shoot clearly to highly over. Yes, and then is it in British law book, have you 8 pound dital scale ...

It is sure that there are numerous stuffs on markets, but if you get something, it is better to be one which fits in all places.

If you only sterilize surfaces, then use virkon S and not dangerous chemicals.
bUT NOW it was question about taking resins and wax off. And the same stuff sterilize all.

OK, I am not chemistry engineer but still I manage with pratical level

This is not so difficult as you make it: "I saw a dead bee on roof. What I I do?"

.

 

[oliver90owner]

So AFB can withstand bleach.
Interesting. Is there evidence? I would be surprised if there was.

So would I, but if that were the case I would be using my normal caustic soda. No (or little) scrubbing needed and very effective.

I was actually thinking about the washing soda, part rather than the bleach part of the process. Anything still left stuck to the surface could still harbour spores within a wax coating.

Probably needs 2% hypochlorite, not the lesser concentration on the earlier post, for a reasonable immersion time. AFB is a very stubbon spore to eradicate. I hope I never ever need to do it on my hives.

RAB

 

[Finman]

.
And guys, I have used 24 years poly boxes. I have teached lots of things to you here.

Then some say to me go to your U books again. I wonder from where that Great Ego emerged to give advices. I just say that don't teach duck to swim. National swimming is not my thing. You know to do that.

Now question was about loosing wax and resins, not sterilizing AFB. Some of you have ability to mix everything.
.