Cell Starter/ Finisher?

[Cuttingedge]

In an attempt to try something new, I set-up a cell starter in a 5 frame nuc today.
I added a graft frame with cups to be polished (15). If I were to graft into that frame tomorrow, could I place it back into the starter and leave it there until I am ready to transfer cells to mating nucs or do I need to add it to a separate finisher? Thanks

 

[Finman]

In an attempt to try something new, I set-up a cell starter in a 5 frame nuc today.
I added a graft frame with cups to be polished (15). If I were to graft into that frame tomorrow, could I place it back into the starter and leave it there until I am ready to transfer cells to mating nucs or do I need to add it to a separate finisher? Thanks

You get the answer soon from your own hive. No one can predict what will happen.

 

[madasafish]

A 5 frame nuc is unlikely to be strong enough to produce big queens... but as I have not tried it...

 

[Eyeman]

If the starter is stuffed full of young bees then it should work as a finisher. Whether it works as well as if you moved the grafts into a 'full size' colony for finishing I don't know.
I've used 14x12 6 frame nucs with the 6th graft frame on a non-Hoffman frame so it fits in (Like it was as dummy board).
You might struggle to get enough bees into a national nuc?
One of the reasons for moving the grafts from the started to the finisher is it frees up the starter for another round of grafts.

 

[B+.]

One of the reasons for moving the grafts from the started to the finisher is it frees up the starter for another round of grafts.

It has always struck me as illogical to transfer started cells to finisher colonies merely for the sake of economy. After all, if the enrichment of cells is the goal, why treat them like worker larvae once started?
Michael Palmer shows, in his presentation at the NHS, that the pupa still has food at the base of the cell even after the queen emerges. I have seen queens in my incubator return to empty that cell. Indeed. if the cell is not torn down, they may even become stuck as they are unable to reverse out.
I use the same hive, packed full of emerging brood, to nurse the cells until they are sealed. Only when they are sealed, and require no more feeding, do I transfer them to my incubator. That is how I produce my queens.

 

[Madge]

It has always struck me as illogical to transfer started cells to finisher colonies merely for the sake of economy. ...

... Only when they are sealed, and require no more feeding, do I transfer them to my incubator. That is how I produce my queens.

For those of us without incubators, aren’t the purpose of the finisher colonies the same as that of an incubator? So, cells are only moved to a finisher colony once they’re capped?

 

[B+.]

For those of us without incubators, aren’t the purpose of the finisher colonies the same as that of an incubator? So, cells are only moved to a finisher colony once they’re capped?

In starter-finisher colonies, the grafted larvae are fed well for 24 hours in the starter, then transferred above a queen excluder between frames of open brood (the finisher) to be nurtured until sealed. I contend that they receive more food the way I have described than in finisher colonies. As Michael Palmer says; he "doesn't share his grafts with any frame of brood" (although he means in starters). Neither do I. If the nurse bees have open larvae to feed, it stands to reason that the potential queen larvae will get less. Our objective must be to ensure they get as much food as possible.
Once sealed, the colony keeps the cells warm. I use an incubator for this.
Commercial queen raisers look for the most efficient way to raise as many queens as they can. My goal is to produce the best queens that I can. I accept that I may not be using the resources as well as I could, but, I prefer better rather than more queens. If they have the right diet (and lots of it) in the starter, why move them if you don't have to?

 

[Madge]

Thanks B+. I understand. I suppose I’m just confused by the terminology. ‘Finisher’ to me meant the final period after the cells are sealed - so, the same function as an incubator.
Kitta

 

[B+.]

Thanks B+. I understand. I suppose I’m just confused by the terminology. ‘Finisher’ to me meant the final period after the cells are sealed - so, the same function as an incubator.
Kitta

In that sense, the colony is merely keeping the cells warm. Towards the end, workers will chew away the wax to reveal the cocoon too so, they do provide an additional service. However, queens have no problem chewing through this from the inside.
I raise my cells in Nicot cages once transferred to the incubator (https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3727). Once they emerge, they are marked and introduced to nucs either for open mating or instrumental insemination.

 

[Cuttingedge]

If the starter is stuffed full of young bees then it should work as a finisher. Whether it works as well as if you moved the grafts into a 'full size' colony for finishing I don't know.
I've used 14x12 6 frame nucs with the 6th graft frame on a non-Hoffman frame so it fits in (Like it was as dummy board).
You might struggle to get enough bees into a national nuc?
One of the reasons for moving the grafts from the started to the finisher is it frees up the starter for another round of grafts.

Thanks for it the info. I usually use the Cloake Board method but figured I would try something new to get just a few cells. My only concern is that one of the frames had a little open brood and a few eggs. I am going to supply the larvae in the cups but they already have a little bit that they could have started cups with overnight. I will go through that frame and look for cups again today before placing the graft frame back in.

 

[Cuttingedge]

It has always struck me as illogical to transfer started cells to finisher colonies merely for the sake of economy. After all, if the enrichment of cells is the goal, why treat them like worker larvae once started?
Michael Palmer shows, in his presentation at the NHS, that the pupa still has food at the base of the cell even after the queen emerges. I have seen queens in my incubator return to empty that cell. Indeed. if the cell is not torn down, they may even become stuck as they are unable to reverse out.
I use the same hive, packed full of emerging brood, to nurse the cells until they are sealed. Only when they are sealed, and require no more feeding, do I transfer them to my incubator. That is how I produce my queens.

Thank you for the information.