Carniolan X

[B+.]

But they have not been normal Carniolans. They are highly bred

I can only talk about what I know. These are the queens that I use. I think they're the best available anywhere.
I have queens that are generation 9 and 10 of a particular line but these are control mated. I wouldn't open mate beyond the first generation (these are used as honey producers and drone mothers only).

 

[Finman]

Your bees sounds especially good.
.

 

[B+.]

Your bees sounds especially good.
.

They are.
It wouldn't be worth propagating 10 generations of a line that showed little value

 

[Hunajavelho]

.

Most of the buckfast, which have imported to Finland, are miserable quality.

Of course they are; if you buy a F1 Buckfast for 30€ from eastern Europe or any other F1 open mated Buckfast - can be super or can be miserable.

As Thomas Rueppel has stated to find a truly good queen you need to control mate 100 virgins of selected stock and then if you find one good out of those you need to raise another 100 daughters of her and if they are still good you have something truly special in your hands.

I have bought F0 queens from Denmark and Germany, it has maid my beekeeping much more easier and profitable with less work.

The finnish ligustica stock may outperform them in a good year and you have a few super colonies but the buckfast stock is more even, no high or lows and minimal winter losses - less work, less time at the hives - time is money!

 

[Beefriendly]

I can only talk about what I know. These are the queens that I use. I think they're the best available anywhere.

Yes, but they are not available commercially. So not really available to the general beekeeper.

 

[iann41]

thanks for all the comments

If you can acquire a well bred and pure Carnolian I am sure they will provide you with a pleasant beekeeping experience.... but you will need to requeen seasonally ( Unless you have the skill levells in AI and selection that B+ has)

I bought some from a breeder in the Wirrall some years ago... daughters were as angry and unpleasant as could bee... must have met with drones from the A group!

Cheers

This is what I'm afraid of. I like some of the traits of the Carniolan but I don't want to requeen that often. I like the idea of at least producing my own queens even if it is every 'other' season. I may stick with the Buckfast.

 

[Murox]

thanks for all the comments



This is what I'm afraid of. I like some of the traits of the Carniolan but I don't want to requeen that often. I like the idea of at least producing my own queens even if it is every 'other' season. I may stick with the Buckfast.

As others have indicated, open mating always is a roll of the dice. Instrumental insemination or remote "island" apiaries are really the only sure way these days.

 

[Finman]

As others have indicated, open mating always is a roll of the dice. Instrumental insemination or remote "island" apiaries are really the only sure way these days.

Only alternative what almost no one uses.
Normal alternative is to buy new Queens and rear F1 virgins.


But now it was a question, is it a good idea to mix two races on small apiary. The will be mixed by themselves with mongrels.
.

 

[Murox]

F1 vigour and aggression are well documented across most of the 'animal' kingdom. Careful selection of wanted traits takes a long time to come to fruition. In the natural scheme of things without mans interference I guess all would be mongrels unless some how isolated.

 

[B+.]

Only alternative what almost no one uses.
Normal alternative is to buy new Queens and rear F1 virgins.
.

It is very common in countries that are nearer the Wadden Sea.
I have queens that were mated on Vlieland, Neuwerk and Wangerooge. If you are prepared to follow the rules, anyone can do it.

 

[Finman]

, anyone can do it.

That is not true. Over 90% of British beekeepers are 2 hive owners, and it makes no sense to rear own island mated mongrels. Please, some reality to this hoping.
.

 

[Finman]

F1 vigour and aggression are well documented across most of the 'animal' kingdom. Careful selection of wanted traits takes a long time .

Rubbish such documentations. Bee breeding did not started yesterday.

And selections have been done in bees long time since movable hive frame innovation.

Very few animals are domesticated in animal kingdom. And there are no F1 generations in nature.

 

[B+.]

That is not true. Over 90% of British beekeepers are 2 hive owners, and it makes no sense to rear own island mated mongrels. Please, some reality to this hoping.
.

You are twisting what I said Finman. Anyone can book a slot on the schedule so long as they follow the rules. It makes no difference how many colonies someone has. If they have recognised 2a queens, they can send daughters to the islands.

 

[For want of a better word]

You are twisting what I said Finman. Anyone can book a slot on the schedule so long as they follow the rules. It makes no difference how many colonies someone has. If they have recognised 2a queens, they can send daughters to the islands.

Can you send bees from the UK?

 

[TooBee...]

Anyone can book a slot on the schedule so long as they follow the rules...If they have recognised 2a queens, they can send daughters to the islands.

What are "2a" virgin queens?

Also you said that you think that carnica's are the best bee (for you), does that mean that your strain or well mated/bred carnica's do not swarm as much as I read in the books and other beekeepers have told me (who knew someone that knew someone that had carnica's), OR do you just manage this trait, remember after non-aggression, non-swarminess is the next most important trait for a novice.

 

[Eyeman]

thanks for all the comments



This is what I'm afraid of. I like some of the traits of the Carniolan but I don't want to requeen that often. I like the idea of at least producing my own queens even if it is every 'other' season. I may stick with the Buckfast.

As you have 10 colonies and been open mating your Buckfast for a while I would definitely stick with what you have. Plenty of scope for improvement when you start queen rearing. Just make sure you get lots of nucs to try out the newly mated queens so that you can cull those that aren't acceptable. My nuc collection is 27 3 frame doubles, 18 5 frame doubles, 18 3 frame single and 15 5 frame singles. I rear at least 2 rounds of queens and the second and subsequent rounds replace any from the first round that aren't acceptable. The best queens from the overwintered nucs replace any from my production colonies. If you have a few out-apiaries you will soon discover which are the best open mating sites.

 

[B+.]

Can you send bees from the UK?

Of course

Edit: You have to have the correct documentation for export and import (from the NBU) and also have a health certificate (which the NBU can do)

 

[B+.]

What are "2a" virgin queens?

Also you said that you think that carnica's are the best bee (for you), does that mean that your strain or well mated/bred carnica's do not swarm as much as I read in the books and other beekeepers have told me (who knew someone that knew someone that had carnica's), OR do you just manage this trait, remember after non-aggression, non-swarminess is the next most important trait for a novice.

2a refers to the position in the pedigree. Basically, anything with an "a" suffix is the dam and anything with a "b" is the sire (a queen that provides the drones). Position 2 is on the maternal side so it would be the mother of virgin queens. Some people use the term "breeder queen" but this is imprecise because it doesn't stipulate whether it is being used to produce virgin queens or drones.

Of course, it is a personal choice. However, I have kept bees for about 30 years. I have tried Buckfasts (Br Adam, Peter Donovan and Friedsichskoog) and was even a member of BiBBa for a while (left in disgust at the lack of any sort of plan or the availability of breeding material). The BeeBreed population of carnica that I use now is, by far, the best I have ever had.
I had 1 colony that swarmed this year (usually none do). The one that swarmed was an Amc queen that I tested on behalf of IB Celle, Germany. I don't do anything special to avoid swarming beyond the obvious that any beekeeper would do (give them space when they need it). I have even had occasions in the past when I was away from home for a while and was unable to check my colonies. When I was able to check them, the brood chamber was completely packed - so much so that I found the queen on the bottom of a frame desperately looking for somewhere to lay. I gave them an extra box and she quickly filled it. The one thing you may consider different is that I use Langstroth equipment which is a bit bigger than the National but about the same comb area as a 14*12. Productive queens require that extra space and failure to give it would probably result in some colonies beginning swarm preparations. I regard this as common sense though.

 

[Beefriendly]

F1 vigour and aggression are well documented across most of the 'animal' kingdom. Careful selection of wanted traits takes a long time to come to fruition. In the natural scheme of things without mans interference I guess all would be mongrels unless some how isolated.

I think when referring to bees you need to be a bit clearer on how you define F1.....
If you purchase Island or II inseminated queens as your breeder stock (I call these F0) and breed from them. The next generation are ALL excellent (these are F1's) and no aggression. It's the next generation from these the F2's where you start to see aggression creeping in (these are now 75% mongrel so no surprise there).
If you buy open mated queens you are already buying F1's, so your next generation is again F2's.
The definition of your breeding stock helps to eliminated these confusions from the literature.

 

[Beefriendly]

The BeeBreed population of carnica that I use now is, by far, the best I have ever had.

Don't take this the wrong way B+ but you really are a "priock teaser". You have the "best bees", don't need to treat for varroa, they don't swarm, produce 200kg honey per hive per year...and not available to anyone else (apart from a select few).
Jealous, Moi

Thank goodness for decent honest commercial do-it-for profit Buckfast breeders.