Carniolan X

[iann41]

Can I ask what your views are on Carniolan X queens. I'm thinking of getting a couple and raising a few queens from them later in the season. These will be open mated. I have good Buckfast stock at the moment and am surrounded by beekeepers that also have Buckfast stock. I know I cannot guarantee the mating but what will the resulting colony be like if a Carniolan queen mates with a Buckfast drone?

Thx

 

[protheroe]

F1 are normally good if from good stock but can often become seriously defensive in future generations from what I've seen in carnies.i started with carnies and didn't need a veil on inspections.the daughters were excellent too but after that they became the hives from hell.

 

[B+.]

Can I ask what your views are on Carniolan X queens. I'm thinking of getting a couple and raising a few queens from them later in the season. These will be open mated. I have good Buckfast stock at the moment and am surrounded by beekeepers that also have Buckfast stock. I know I cannot guarantee the mating but what will the resulting colony be like if a Carniolan queen mates with a Buckfast drone?

Thx

It all depends on how good the original carnica queen and her mates were. That is your starting point and without that any further discussion is conjecture.
At that point your queen and her drones will be carnica but the workers will be 50% on average carnica. Of course, if your queen mated with carnica drones, the workers would be 100% carnica too. However, with open mating, you can never be completely sure.
If you raised daughter queens, they would be just like the female progeny I described above: 50% carnica on average. As you progress through the generations, the percentage halves each generation - a 1/2 becomes a 1/4, a 1/4 becomes an 1/8, etc so the value of queens diminishes in only a few generations of uncontrolled mating

 

[Finman]

.
Problem is that, that Carniolans are eager to swarm.
You bring to local buckfast genepool swarming tendency. That do not give anything good in crossings. Buckfast is famous for its non swarming habits.

Most of the buckfast, which have imported to Finland, are miserable quality.

When you buy Carniolan queens, they can be what ever and no quarantee what they are.

People talk about F2 Buckfasts. It is not any more Buckfast because it has only 1/4 original genes.

I bought Buckfast 2-4 years ago, I have wondered how fast generations changes. One feature is that crossing colonies are half size compared to original. With whom they have mated, I do not know.

 

[Finman]

the daughters were excellent too but after that they became the hives from hell.

They turn mongrels like any other bee race. It is continuous selecting. And hybrids follow typically Gaus' distribution in good and in bad.
.

 

[B+.]

.
Problem is that, that Carniolans are eager to swarm.

When something is repeated often enough, people may come to believe it. However, that doesn't make it universally true.

It is continuous selecting.

You can improve the qualities of almost any bee if you take appropriate action over a long enough period of time. The Buckfast is a synthetic hybrid and illustrates this point very well. It has a reputation built upon the efforts of breeders who continually improve it. The same is true of other races and it is wrong to assume they are all the same. If you buy queens from a breeder, you will not usually be disappointed. However, if you buy your stock from pile-em-high, sell-them-cheap intermediaries, you have no guarantee of the queens provenance let alone pedigree.

 

[For want of a better word]

When something is repeated often enough, people may come to believe it. However, that doesn't make it universally true.



You can improve the qualities of almost any bee if you take appropriate action over a long enough period of time. The Buckfast is a synthetic hybrid and illustrates this point very well. It has a reputation built upon the efforts of breeders who continually improve it. The same is true of other races and it is wrong to assume they are all the same. If you buy queens from a breeder, you will not usually be disappointed. However, if you buy your stock from pile-em-high, sell-them-cheap intermediaries, you have no guarantee of the queens provenance let alone pedigree.

If you can acquire a well bred and pure Carnolian I am sure they will provide you with a pleasant beekeeping experience.... but you will need to requeen seasonally ( Unless you have the skill levells in AI and selection that B+ has)

I bought some from a breeder in the Wirrall some years ago... daughters were as angry and unpleasant as could bee... must have met with drones from the A group!

Cheers

 

[B+.]

If you can acquire a well bred and pure Carnolian I am sure they will provide you with a pleasant beekeeping experience.... but you will need to requeen seasonally ( Unless you have the skill levells in AI and selection that B+ has)

I bought some from a breeder in the Wirrall some years ago... daughters were as angry and unpleasant as could bee... must have met with drones from the A group!

Cheers

Why would you re-queen annually?

 

[Finman]

If you can acquire a well bred and pure Carnolian I am sure they will provide you with a pleasant beekeeping experience...

Cheers

Sometimes it is true and sometimes not. IT has that magic word "if".

Beebreeders are not the most honest people in the world.
Often they sell what they have.

 

[Finman]

Why would you re-queen annually?

I have done the same. Young queens are good layers.
.

 

[Finman]

When something is repeated often enough, people may come to believe it. However, that doesn't make it universally true.
.

Swarming of Carniolans is an universal truth. You cannot deny it even if you try.

Buy queens from Slovenia and look what happens.

When you repeat if if if, soon you believe it. Beekeeping is such hope-science.

 

[B+.]

I have done the same. Young queens are good layets.
.

I think you have to look at the performance of your other colonies. Usually, the queens best performance is in her first year of life, but, she may still perform better than other colonies in her second or third year, depending on how good the rest of the stock is.
Although I do most of my performance testing in the queens first year of life, it's still worth looking at their performance in subsequent years (e.g. honey yield in the 2nd year)

 

[Finman]

.
But my opinion is that you do not get advantage if you buy Carniolan blood to the Buckfast gang. It is better to buy Buckfasts from different places.

I bought Buckfasts to Italian bee gang and I see that it does not have future. But it was good to see, how pleasant Buckfasts are.

If I have two races, my alternatives are much more smaller.

 

[Finman]

.
I have tried to make a mixture from selected breeds, multihybrid, but the result was far from good.

When I have had about 20 hives, it does not give much alternatives to select or breed. Inbreeding problems are easy to get into the apiary. What I can do is to buy mother queens from professional breeders.

 

[madasafish]

My bees are a mix:
Carnies (last Q bought 5 years ago- several generations since),
Buckfast (last queen 3 years ago, 3 generations since)
and local mongrels with whom the queens mate.

Generally they are even tempered- I cull the bad ones,- not swarmy - I cull the bad ones - and quiet on the comb - I cull the bad ones. My best two produced over 130lbs honey each this year.


BUT - I have seen the outcome of local mating with an F3?F10? Carnie with local mongrels. They would chase you when you drove into the yard..VILE. Requeened of course.

Horses for courses.

 

[B+.]

My bees are a mix:
Carnies (last Q bought 5 years ago- several generations since),
Buckfast (last queen 3 years ago, 3 generations since)
and local mongrels with whom the queens mate.

Generally they are even tempered- I cull the bad ones,- not swarmy - I cull the bad ones - and quiet on the comb - I cull the bad ones. My best two produced over 130lbs honey each this year.


BUT - I have seen the outcome of local mating with an F3?F10? Carnie with local mongrels. They would chase you when you drove into the yard..VILE. Requeened of course.

Horses for courses.

By that point, any carnica influence is minimal. I'd be inclined to blame the local mongrel population.

 

[B+.]

Buy queens from Slovenia and look what happens.

I've never bought queens from Slovenia so I can't comment on their quality. I can only say that the queens I've had from the BeeBreed population (German and Dutch) have been outstanding.

 

[Finman]

I've had from the BeeBreed population (German and Dutch) have been outstanding.

But they have not been normal Carniolans. They are highly bred

 

[Poly Hive]

Mine are the Alpine strain bred up I believe in NZ.

I think the longest I have been with out buying in was five years and frankly I saw not a lot of difference between the first and the last.

I last bought in two years ago and this season never lit the smoker once.

However I do live in a very under populated area with some 6 colonies with in range that I know of. There may of course be others.

PH

 

[Finman]

By that point, any carnica influence is minimal. I'd be inclined to blame the local mongrel population.

F10 Carnica is a miracle.

When I stopped rearing Elgon bees, it took 4 years that their genes vanished from village.