cardboard as insulation

[Finman]

.
It must be so that you have in Britain good cover board materials.
Wood fibre board are good. We say them "wind shelter board".


I know that part of card boards take blue mold.

Currulated brown cardboard stinks really bad when it is moist.
Perhaps does not affect on varroa.

Cover stuff must be so stiff that bees do not chew the material to small dust.

I use a box which bottom is 5 mm x 10 mm wood slices (nailed).
Edge frame is 2 cm x 7 cm. Then you may use different kind of insulating material in the box.
Wood is easy to keep clean with flame and the structure stands 20 years.

 

[Nose Ma]

That's what I was wondering - much easier to cut and fit under a pitched roof. I'm here looking at Kingspan and a pitched roof and scratching my thinking bits.

I am trying a stack of polystyrene beads my wife had left over from filling a bean bag, in a sack made from some old net curtain. Should fit to shape, and not rot. We'll see...

 

[oliver90owner]

I am trying a stack of polystyrene beads

I daresay rolling those beans, or the polystyrene dog t**rds for that matter, in thinned paint or PVA glue and then 'pouring' them into the roof, allowing them to stick as the paint/glue dries would make a cast insulation block. Could, if it was a shape that could be removed, be a separate 'casting if the roof were lined to prevent the beads sticking directly to it?

Just needs some lateral thinking, depending on what is available cheaply. Triangular blocks (wedges) could be cut from a thick sheet of EPS and the roof built in like a brick wall, any small 'imperfections' being filled with something else?

RAB

 

[Headnavigator]

I was thinking about something like that, RAB, or taping bubble-wrap into the (very limited) roof space, but it occurs to me that it wouldn't give a lot of insulation and could block the flow through the roof vents, which may be quite important in keeping the moisture balance. Not sure what you think about that - I seem to remember some here think that with an OMF the roof vents are counter-productive. I think itma's suggestion of an eke with a couple of layers of kingspan in it (or it's crap equivalent that I can get here!) may be the best answer, I can do a cut-out for a fondant feeder in the lower one and then the roof can sit over the top?

 

[jimbeekeeper]

I daresay rolling those beans, or the polystyrene dog t**rds for that matter, in thinned paint or PVA glue and then 'pouring' them into the roof, allowing them to stick as the paint/glue dries would make a cast insulation block. Could, if it was a shape that could be removed, be a separate 'casting if the roof were lined to prevent the beads sticking directly to it?

Just needs some lateral thinking, depending on what is available cheaply. Triangular blocks (wedges) could be cut from a thick sheet of EPS and the roof built in like a brick wall, any small 'imperfections' being filled with something else?

RAB

Thats quite a good thought RAB. And my lateral thinking and take it a step further would be to use the spray foam insulation you get in a can. A suitable relase agent or simple lining of even cling film would prevent it sticking.

On setting, the foam can easly be carved with a sharp knife to finish of the shape.

Great stuff that foam in the can, it is top place in my tool box, along with silicone sealant, duct tape, WD40 and cable ties.

 

[TOBY-3652]

try asking at pet stores, they sometimes get peanuts delivered in them

i would be careful getting used hessian sacks i knew someone that got some that had been used for coffee beans and he found out just in time that they had been fumigated to kill bugs so i dont think they would be good for in a bee hive

 

[oliver90owner]

The roof vents are there to ventilate the roof to keep it free of any moisture which might otherwise accumulate. They are part of the design for the roof space and really nothing to do with what is below the crownboard.

If it were raining when you replaced your roof, that moisture would cause mould/rot; if moisture goes through the crownboard, that moisture also needs to be lost from the roof space. That is why they are there. I used to leave the feed holes open in my early days and the roof vents were propolised over. The bees told me they did not want holes in the crownboard!

I sometimes put mesh over the porter escape holes when transporting hives, and leave it rather than remove it when the hive is installed in it's new position. When I return to remove it or change to a solid crownboard, the mesh is almost, or completely, propolised over - again, them telling me they don't want that draught.

I added more skirting to my Dartington roofs to allow an extra layer of insulation and now use deep roofs (probably deeper than Th*rne deep roofs), so the crownboard/ brood box joint is always well overlapped.

An eke would suffice, but beware that the roof is elevated from the brood box and it may need other means of securing it for the winter. Otherwise, no problem with it at all.

I make sure that there is no gaps around the crownboard (especially if it is disturbed after the bees are clustered as they can no longer propolise them) to prevent any unwanted draw through the hive body or ingress of driven rain should I have an extra box for feeding fondant.

I don't normally need to feed fondant (might this winter - never can tell) but would still use a super with a large block of EPS with a feed box hole, if I did. It would mean changing the coverboard these days for me, to accommodate the fondant feeder. I take that risk but it is certainly less time to change the coverboard than treating with oxalic acid in the middle of the winter.

Regards, RAB

 

[oliver90owner]

TOBY-3652,

fumigated

That can mean a gaseous bug-killer which kills the bugs and dissipates quickly.

They are not likely to be using persistent 'icides' to kill bugs in a food product or food container.

We can fumigate frames with ethanoic acid - kills nosema spores and waxmoth or use sulphur dioxide fumes, but the frames are re-usable after ventilation. We used to use PCB crystals to prevent waxmoth (not allowed now) and that was obviously toxic to bees if not aired properly (even then, there was contamination of the wax).

Also, above a solid crownboard might be a pretty safe place, even if they were slightly contaminated with something. Not much is going through my 9mm solid ply crownboards.

RAB

 

[peteinwilts]

as the poster of the original question, I am going to go and buy some more kingspan!

Rab: in another thread regarding fondant, you suggested placing insulation around the fondant... obviously not kingspan!
what would you use?

I am not feeding any more syrup (I read somewhere that you shouldn't below 15 degrees... good to know if this is true!)

My hives last week were still gulping down syrup, with one hive taking 27 litres (and still asking for more!), with a few still taking 2 litres a day.
Most have had their fill just over or just under or over 20 litres.

However, I have a small number that has only taken between 6-10 litres and am thinking of giving them a slab of fondant for going into winter... hence the insulate around the fondant question!

 

[oliver90owner]

insulation around the fondant... obviously not kingspan!
what would you use?

Don't ask! I've used all sorts of things over the years, but no kingspan. Towels, old jumpers/T-shirts, old curtains, EPS, even wood shavings. Just depended on what was available at the time.

EPS with a shaped cut-out for a take-away transparent container was the usual regular item I settled on, but inside the WBCs anything draped over and around the top of the crownboard was good enough. I still have several 100m mm EPS blocks that will just fit in a super. I cut the hole and then just fitted the block over the fondant. Not used any for a while, though.

In my second(?) winter I remember I used a loosely-filled netting bag with wood shavings in it and 'moulded' it over the brood box/super in one of the WBCs. I used wood shavings in a 1/2 super over a nuc once; it worked OK as they only needed the one carton of fondant. Made a bit of a mess when I took it off.

I reckon anything suitable will do the job. Depends on how many hives one has and the type, of course. At one time I always over-wintered with a super on top of the crownboard, but now I rarely do that - the 14 x 12s are just that bit different to deeps for wintering and I have become 'less protective'. I do at least enough to ensure a dry hive in the spring. That is my target, these days.

RAB

 

[Luminos]

I have an Ashforth feeder on at the moment for the syrup, and have filled it with straw, just in case bees find their way in, which they haven't, so far.
I was wondering if this arrangement would serve as insulation for the winter (minus the syrup, obviously...) as straw is a good insulator?

 

[itma]

... as straw is a good insulator?

I think you need quite a lot greater thickness of straw to get the same level of insulation as with Kingspan-type products.
For the same performance you need 2x the thickness with Rockwool, so 3x, 4x ... with straw?
In modern terms, straw is quite a low performance insulator!

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

I have an Ashforth feeder on at the moment for the syrup, and have filled it with straw, just in case bees find their way in, which they haven't, so far.
I was wondering if this arrangement would serve as insulation for the winter (minus the syrup, obviously...) as straw is a good insulator?

Probably better than nothing, but its worth asking your fellow locals - as Chris Luck alluded to elsewhere mid France's requirements are not the same as the UK

 

[oliver90owner]

In modern terms, straw is quite a low performance insulator!

Agreed, but for some it might be more cost effective! Could always use it to bed down the horses when it is no longer needed on the hives!

Question might be as to what performance is actually required. Warres still work nicely with a box of sawdust and shavings.

RAB

 

[Luminos]

Many thanks for your views: -

Itma - I don't know what Kingspan is called here, or Rockwool, for that matter. Nor do I have any shops near which would sell them, but I have straw to hand, and so wondered if it would be suitable.

M.Abeille - Chris Luck is not "local" to me (France is a big place!), also, I don't think he has WBC's.

Oliver90owner - No way would I use straw to bed down the horses, much too labour-intensive to muck out - but your suggestion of wood-shavings has got me thinking, I could perhaps use wood-pellets (compressed sawdust).

 

[mbc]

I have open access to my miller or ashforth feeders with the feed compartments stuffed with wood wool,( or gorse or laburnam or heather, whatevers free ! ) not sure about insulation but it stops bees drowning

 

[For want of a better word]

I am surprised by the amount of heat generated by bees... the syrup in the Ashforth feeders has not crystallized and feels nice and warm, contact feeders presumably not having such a large contact surface area have crystallized.

Scrounged a damaged 8 x 4 sheet of damaged Kingspan ( not easy getting that home on the batbike!).... Kingspan Crown Boards R US ?
wondering if to drill a 2 inch ventilation hole and cover in mesh? or even to excavate a polythene tub sized cavity for fondant.

 

[oliver90owner]

but I have straw to hand,

If you have straw, perhaps thinking 'chaff', would be ideal It would fill the Ashforth and only leave the entry side to be sealed off.

Easier still would be a large bag to drop on top of the crownboard, flop over the sides. Easily removed. Hang it up somewhere for storage. Ideal - cheap, effective easily 'shaped', bio-degradable. What else could you want? Almost perfect.

Only downside as far as I can see is you need to find somewhere to store the Ashforth through the winter (still need storage in the spring/summer, so not really any difference).

If I had WBCs, that would be a favourite for me. I have used a loose filled bag of sawdust/shavings before, when I had a couple of WBCs.

RAB

 

[montybees]

carpet etc as choice of insulation - in days long gone.
Regards, RAB

I know a retired beeinspector who still swears by it

 

[Skyhook]

"I suspect better than nothing, but not great. Hol;d a piece of Kingspan in one hand and some cardboard in the other. Which hand starts to feel warm?"

very philosophical - are you related to finman or spomenko?

I don't perceive myself to be so, but how I can I be certain?