Can you overfeed syrup at this time of year?

[Obee1]

Forever hearing peeps ask how much to feed their bees ready for winter. Was told by an old school beek of many years experience that it is not possible to overfeed at this time of year. When the bees have enough stores they will stop taking the feed. So... As sugar is relatively cheap compared to the cost of a colony of bees would it be a good idea to advise newbies who are unable to judge by hefting, to prepare for winter by just feeding till they take no more.

 

[Heather]

Yes it is possible to overfeed, as the bees will happily accept it, but the queen needs room to lay those eggs for your winter bees. It is a balancing act.

I tend to feed about 4 pints 2:1 syrup if the hive feels light, Then I wait a week and then feed again. Depends on weather too.

They may be pulling in nectar from ivy next month.. but too much of that and the stores will be full of solid cells of food, but a harsh winter and bees don't go out for water to reduce the set honey back to edible for themselves. I like to mix it a bit to avoid that scenario.

When hive has enough stores for winter it should be difficult to lift.

 

[GlenJ]

I don't think so, others may differ. Too many variables to take into account if you want to be a proper beekeeper rather than a provider of a bee-house. You have to know that there are things to learn.

 

[bjosephd]

This is a good question. I was wondering if I was risking making my hives cell bound by over feeding them. It's tricky, my hives are late starters this season due to queen/mating issues, and so I've been feeding them up to try and get them building comb for the queen to get laying... but they seem to have filled a lot of that comb with stores. Maybe I'll withhold the feed now for a while and hopefully they will eat up some space (or build more comb) for the queen to lay. Maybe I should bung in an extra frame for her majesty to get cracking on... they drawn down about 3 foundationless combs nicely... and then filled them mostly with stores! Trixky

 

[Finman]

.
When it is time to feed colony, feed it as much it takes. So it cap the cells.
The amount of brood hinders the taking in. Bees do not cap stores if cells are not full.

First of all, reduce the Wintering space first.

Colony needs space for Winter as much as it has brood frames on previous brood cycle before feeding.

It colony has had maximum 6 frames brood, it needs 6-7 wintering frames.

Do not put them draw foundations.
.
Overfeeding depends, how much you leave extra space into the hive.

 

[Into the lions den]

.
When it is time to feed colony, feed it as much it takes. So it cap the cells.
The amount of brood hinders the taking in. Bees do not cap stores if cells are not full.

First of all, reduce the Wintering space first.

Colony needs space for Winter as much as it has brood frames on previous brood cycle before feeding.

It colony has had maximum 6 frames brood, it needs 6-7 wintering frames.

Do not put them draw foundations.
.
Overfeeding depends, how much you leave extra space into the hive.

Hate to disagree with you but sadly in this case I do, and probably mostly due to climate differences. Your advice closely mirrors what they would tell you in Canada, as does your climate.

In the UK you can generally open up and give a remedial feed of fondant at any time in winter if they were left shortish at the outset, and on mild days any time in poly hives they will take a little invert syrup down.

We did actually experiment with groups on the 'feed till they will not take any more' model, and others on the '14kg only' model. Thats 10 litres of invert syrup btw if you wonder about why such an arbitrary figure.

The lower feeding regime of the 14kg groups raised more late brood and were stronger in spring and had a considerably lower winter loss rate. the ones that were too heavy sometimes just got too small by spring crossover point (the time young bees hatching starts to exceed old bees dying). Now we never feed to the point of being stuffed full. Might seem counter intuitive to some, but its they way it pans out. Feeding till completely full is not what gives the best results, and not just for brood amount, as the bees like a significant area of open cells where they cluster very compactly, both on and in the cells. .

As for adding foundation. September in particular is a truly great month here for getting new combs drawn in the nest whilst doing the winter feeding. Not a drone cell on them. We get three to five new combs drawn in almost all our early home hives (up to 1st week Oct in wood, third week in poly) It will all be down to the maritime climate. Yet they do even more radical things in Denmark and Norway, where they can put them into winter on all new wax and feed to get it drawn.

ps....it is very unusual, if we have fed the 14Kg, for the bees to need anything more feed wise before the spring feed window.

 

[beeno]

Thank you ITLD. That sits very comfortably with my experiences of overwintering. If past experiences on the forum are anything to go by, you should be getting a lot of criticism on certain points from some quarters or is it only newbies that get it? I shall wait and see.

 

[Obee1]

Hate to disagree with you but sadly in this case I do, and probably mostly due to climate differences. Your advice closely mirrors what they would tell you in Canada, as does your climate.

In the UK you can generally open up and give a remedial feed of fondant at any time in winter if they were left shortish at the outset, and on mild days any time in poly hives they will take a little invert syrup down.

We did actually experiment with groups on the 'feed till they will not take any more' model, and others on the '14kg only' model. Thats 10 litres of invert syrup btw if you wonder about why such an arbitrary figure.

The lower feeding regime of the 14kg groups raised more late brood and were stronger in spring and had a considerably lower winter loss rate. the ones that were too heavy sometimes just got too small by spring crossover point (the time young bees hatching starts to exceed old bees dying). Now we never feed to the point of being stuffed full. Might seem counter intuitive to some, but its they way it pans out. Feeding till completely full is not what gives the best results, and not just for brood amount, as the bees like a significant area of open cells where they cluster very compactly, both on and in the cells. .

As for adding foundation. September in particular is a truly great month here for getting new combs drawn in the nest whilst doing the winter feeding. Not a drone cell on them. We get three to five new combs drawn in almost all our early home hives (up to 1st week Oct in wood, third week in poly) It will all be down to the maritime climate. Yet they do even more radical things in Denmark and Norway, where they can put them into winter on all new wax and feed to get it drawn.

ps....it is very unusual, if we have fed the 14Kg, for the bees to need anything more feed wise before the spring feed window.

I know you use langstroths - do you over winter all colonies on double brood boxes? The 14kgs of feed - is that given regardless of what stores are on the hive at the start. Do you always use invert syrup rather than home made syrup? Also, one more question - do you put foundation into the brood nest, ie splitting the brood?

Obee

 

[enrico]

Informative post ITLD. where are your hives based....roughly....?
Are you suggesting that 10 litres is a good amount and if so when would you suggest that amount is given? I understand there are weather restrictions but again......roughly?
E

 

[madasafish]

My 4 Lang jumbos have been fed 55kgs of sugar.. and I have stopped feeding. All were light - indeed most had virtually no stores a month ago when I started feeding - 3kgs of 2:1 solution every 4-5 days.
The average hive weight (bearing in mind one colony is half size) is 40kgs. (weighing half a hive with digital scales and doubling)

 

[Into the lions den]

I know you use langstroths - do you over winter all colonies on double brood boxes? The 14kgs of feed - is that given regardless of what stores are on the hive at the start. Do you always use invert syrup rather than home made syrup? Also, one more question - do you put foundation into the brood nest, ie splitting the brood?

Obee

Use both Langstroth and BS, in our case the Smith format. Always winter on singles in both types.

As we are lightening the nest to get the foundation in it means that the amount of stores they have already is more or less eliminated as a factor, and the 14Kg or thereabouts is fed regardless. Do not have time to do it any other way.

The frames of foundation are inserted into the midst of the nest, alternately with the existing combs. We never put two together in the middle.

However, once again in experiments, with ongoing trickle feeding rather than one big pre-winter feed, we were able to renew almost the whole nest, by putting more foundation in on either side of the newly drawn ones, and gradually moving the old combs away to the outside. End up with 5 or even 7 nice new combs with one generation of brood through most of them in the core of the colony. Had no negative effect on wintering. Due to time constraints, and what do we do with the removed frames that contain syrup, we no longer do this, but it does work.

Always use invert. No labour making it up, and very stable product that even if left in the hive top feeders all winter never goes off. They virtually take it down and cap it. Its not especially stimulative, but its a swings and roundabouts thing.

 

[Into the lions den]

Informative post ITLD. where are your hives based....roughly....?
Are you suggesting that 10 litres is a good amount and if so when would you suggest that amount is given? I understand there are weather restrictions but again......roughly?
E

Keep bees in Aberdeenshire, Perthshire, Angus, Lothians, Herefordshire and Gloucestershire. Rules are not a lot different in any of the places apart from a couple of weeks on the timings. They all get the 10 litres.

The English end can be fed almost 3 weeks earlier in spring, and will take syrup readily until early December. However important to point out that these are all poly Langs down there. They get a small 'keep them alive' feed at the heather before being brought south for winter in November some time and then fed the balance of what they need.

The Scottish units get fed as soon as they come of the heather with the full feed in one go. Due to numbers and time taken this can be any time from mid September to early November. We try to finish the wooden hives feed wise by mid October due to the earlier onset of clustering and winter torpor.
We can get away with feeding the poly hives right into November and they still take their full feed in three or four days. Failure to do so, at any time, is often an indication of problems, usually duff queens. However they may only be a bit small and do not take as much down as a stronger hive, and with invert this can just be left and they get an early start on it in late winter early spring and start to build.

The 400 or so nucs that do not get put to the heather are currently on a trickle feed regime, getting a litre a week or thereabouts to keep the queens laying. they will then get a larger feed about the 1st October and then left alone till spring. The trickle feeding works very well. Will try to attach a photo of the brood in them taken on Monday this week.

 

[Finman]

.I wonder all tricks what you use out there.

You feed in September and in November some are allready giving emergency feeding

But do as you like! The most complex way and most expencive Sugar as you find.

Your bees. I have not problems for climatic reasons.


.

 

[Into the lions den]

You feed in September and in November some are allready giving emergency feeding

But do as you like! The most complex way and most expencive Sugar as you find.
.

Our timings suit us. We are still at the calluna flowering, it is in full flower right now. 3 weeks later than usual. Thus thgis year we will not be starting to take the harvest until the start of next week as the weather is to break down yet again this weekend and that will be season end. In the north part of our range the weather has been good the last week or so and the hives have been in September mode and are stuffed full of this honey right to the bottom bars of the bottom box, and not filled in higher up the hive as they would have done earlier. we have a lot of rearranging and reorganisation of the colonies to do. with over 2500 to get round its a big task, so we will do our first feeding in about a week from now, and the last hives will not be stripped and home until about 5th to 7th November this year. Very late. However even then in poly they will still take their feed down and its safe with invert and not so safe with white sugar derived syrup.

You say its the most expensive yet it does not actually work out that way, but then I doubt you know what I pay for it. Take into account the labour, the lack of waste, and the stabiulity of the product both in storage and the combs even if not capped then its a no brainer. The bees winter better and safer. Simple economics really. In my situation we SAVE money in the long run using good grade invert. Arguing the toss over a small amount of money on the price of feed when the returns on even a little better bees dwarf that amount is missing the point. Give them what is best within reason. In our system good quality invert is best.

Have never had to feed any colony an emergency feed in November using this system. What others choose to do is their concern. Nothing complex about it. The tanker turns up and in about 40 mins discharges 25 tonnes into our pallet tanks. We forklift them onto our Unimogs as required, go off to the bees with them, and in an hour and a half we will give 100 hives their full winter feed out of a 1400Kg/1000L tankful. Could not be easier when my staff are so busy doing other things. c68 eurocents delivered per Kg btw......delivery to Scotland is a sizeable chunk of that.

AND...I did not say you had a problem with climate, just that yours is a very different situation from ours. Here in Scotland in January our average temperature is in the low single figures above zero Celcius. To get 9 10 11 C is not at all unusual and regular cleansing flights happen most winters, and even in those days bees can take a little syrup in poly hives. Prolonged cold spells are a rarity. We had two white mornings with snow last winter. Most of the rest were mild and not freezing. Its not like Finland winter at all, so is it a surprise we do things differently. That should not be a point of dispute, more it should be a point of interest.

 

[Matt77]

Really enjoy your posts ITLD, its facinating to hear how a large operation such as yours is run, the figures are mind boggling to little hobby beekeeper like me. I hadn't realised you had sites so far south. I hope you dont mind me asking, do you work all the sites or do you have teams of beekeepers in each area?

 

[BrianO]

Ditto !!

Absolutely Fascinating

 

[Obee1]

Thanks ITTLD. Our SBI was telling us that only this week she had found one hive where the beekeeper had put foundation into the brood nest. Shock horror! She thinks splitting the brood nest is a complete nono at any time of year but sacrilege to do it now.
It's good to hear beekeeping tips from someone who has experimented on large numbers of colonies to find better ways of doing things.

 

[thorn]

At this time of year,the feeding is for an emergency, not for winter storage. Should it be 1.1 or 2.1?

 

[Into the lions den]

At this time of year,the feeding is for an emergency, not for winter storage. Should it be 1.1 or 2.1?

It honestly matters a lot less than convention would have it. Just used the same stuff all year, even when it was white sugar feeding.

This early give them thin or thick, they will sort it out to their own satisfaction in no time. Thicker will add weight more rapidly, thinner will be more stimulative due to the heat they need to generate to bring it to storing condition. Do as you choose, the difference will not be huge.

 

[Into the lions den]

Really enjoy your posts ITLD, its facinating to hear how a large operation such as yours is run, the figures are mind boggling to little hobby beekeeper like me. I hadn't realised you had sites so far south. I hope you dont mind me asking, do you work all the sites or do you have teams of beekeepers in each area?

We ran with three teams this season. We used to have a team in the south residing there but it was something of a disaster, so now the Scottish based squad come down, take rooms in the Travelodge at Tewkesbury and we blitz the whole 500 odd down there in 2 to 3 days per visit.

If you look back the albums you can find a set of pics of the Scottish end of the migration of the English bees to the heather at Aviemore.

Only able to be posting during the day right now because, in my infinite wisdom, I tried skydiving off the back of a Unimog last week (was up on the back to slacken the lid on the syrup tank) and landed with all my not inconsiderable bulk on my right ankle. Not broken but gee I have been a bit incapacitated for a few days.