Brood on one side of box

[Pollen]

Hello! I've had a hive of bees for a year but I've noticed a problem that's not too easy to search for online, as the words used to describe it are common enough that all sorts of beekeeping things come up, so I wonder whether anyone has any suggestions for how to sort it? I've dipped into other threads on here in the past and found it to be a very useful place to come for just about everything bee related.

Just before I left them for winter, I noticed that only the last 3 (I think) frames on one side were full of brood. Early this spring, I had a look inside and found the same again - or rather a friend of mine found the same: I'd only checked just past the middle and assumed I'd gone queenless over the winter, as it was all just empty frames with lots of eggs dotted around as per laying workers. He came over and pulled out a frame from the other side which was quite healthy, and said that the bees would sort out whoever it was laying eggs all over the place.

Since then, I've had a look twice, and more than a month on from my first inspection, they're still the same with empty frames and worker eggs, then 3 or 4 frames of brood. On my last inspection, I pulled off the super directly above the brood box, and found that they'd built bridge comb between the brood box and the bottom of the super frames on the same side, and the bridge was full of brood where the comb split (I was going to go onto a brood-and-a-half this year, so left the excluder out). I can't remember where the brood in that super was though but I think it was concentrated on the same side.

I was hoping to have another look this weekend, but the weather forecast doesn't look too hopeful at the moment, but whenever I can, should I perhaps try moving the end frames with brood somewhere into the middle in the hope that they'll rediscover the full size of the brood box? Or perhaps put an excluder in, to force the brood sideways instead of up? Or let them get on with it? It shouldn't be that the East side (where the brood is) is any warmer than anywhere else as the South is open to sun for much of the day and the West isn't shaded until quite late. I might also try putting something under the mesh floor to see if it's to do with cold wind coming up from underneath.

In the meantime, there's lots of pollen going in all the time and the supers are getting fuller, so all seems to be in order apart from the fact that they are ignoring all of the space I'm giving them at the bottom.

Any thoughts?


I hope this is a sensible section to put this in - I'm definitely still a beginner, and the problem seems fairly minor and will probably be an easy fix, hence not jumping straight into the main beekeeping forum.

 

[Tom Bick]

Sounds like a small colony with perhaps a poor queen occupying to large a space. Put them into a nuc or reduce the space in the bb.

 

[enrico]

I would let them get on with it. They are bringing food in, she maybe just a slow layer. My slow layer produces the most honey! You never say whether the dotted around eggs come to anything! Are they worker or drones when capped?
My gut reaction is they will use the space as soon as the weather warms up.
E

 

[user 6228]

Hello! I've had a hive of bees for a year but I've noticed a problem that's not too easy to search for online, as the words used to describe it are common enough that all sorts of beekeeping things come up, so I wonder whether anyone has any suggestions for how to sort it? I've dipped into other threads on here in the past and found it to be a very useful place to come for just about everything bee related.

Just before I left them for winter, I noticed that only the last 3 (I think) frames on one side were full of brood. Early this spring, I had a look inside and found the same again - or rather a friend of mine found the same: I'd only checked just past the middle and assumed I'd gone queenless over the winter, as it was all just empty frames with lots of eggs dotted around as per laying workers. He came over and pulled out a frame from the other side which was quite healthy, and said that the bees would sort out whoever it was laying eggs all over the place.

Since then, I've had a look twice, and more than a month on from my first inspection, they're still the same with empty frames and worker eggs, then 3 or 4 frames of brood. On my last inspection, I pulled off the super directly above the brood box, and found that they'd built bridge comb between the brood box and the bottom of the super frames on the same side, and the bridge was full of brood where the comb split (I was going to go onto a brood-and-a-half this year, so left the excluder out). I can't remember where the brood in that super was though but I think it was concentrated on the same side.

I was hoping to have another look this weekend, but the weather forecast doesn't look too hopeful at the moment, but whenever I can, should I perhaps try moving the end frames with brood somewhere into the middle in the hope that they'll rediscover the full size of the brood box? Or perhaps put an excluder in, to force the brood sideways instead of up? Or let them get on with it? It shouldn't be that the East side (where the brood is) is any warmer than anywhere else as the South is open to sun for much of the day and the West isn't shaded until quite late. I might also try putting something under the mesh floor to see if it's to do with cold wind coming up from underneath.

In the meantime, there's lots of pollen going in all the time and the supers are getting fuller, so all seems to be in order apart from the fact that they are ignoring all of the space I'm giving them at the bottom.

Any thoughts?


I hope this is a sensible section to put this in - I'm definitely still a beginner, and the problem seems fairly minor and will probably be an easy fix, hence not jumping straight into the main beekeeping forum.

often happens - well as least here. Bees originate from tree nests which are very tall and thin (e.g. 200mm dia by 1.5m), so its not so surprising.
Remedy: shelter, insulation and time

 

[Pollen]

Thanks - I'll just wait and see how they get on then.

You never say whether the dotted around eggs come to anything! Are they worker or drones when capped?

They never seemed to develop at all, still just little white flecks just the same as when I first noticed them just over a month ago. I don't think the bees are interested enough in that side of the box to bother with them - those frames only had a couple of bees here and there on them when I last looked although the rest of the hive is reasonably full.

 

[B+.]

Just before I left them for winter, I noticed that only the last 3 (I think) frames on one side were full of brood. Early this spring, I had a look inside and found the same again ...
Since then, I've had a look twice, and more than a month on from my first inspection, they're still the same with empty frames and worker eggs, then 3 or 4 frames of brood. On my last inspection, I pulled off the super directly above the brood box, and found that they'd built bridge comb between the brood box and the bottom of the super frames on the same side, and the bridge was full of brood where the comb split (I was going to go onto a brood-and-a-half this year, so left the excluder out). I can't remember where the brood in that super was though but I think it was concentrated on the same side.

.[/SIZE]

Thats an interesting problem you have there.
If you have eggs/larvae and sealed worker brood you definitely haven't lost your queen. However, she may be defective in some way. I have had queens that refuse to move off one or two combs. They just keep spiralling around laying in the same area. I came to the conclusion that the queen was defective (probably a damaged leg) so I replaced her.
Another thought occurs to me: is the comb that she's avoiding ok?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Thanks - I'll just wait and see how they get on then.



They never seemed to develop at all, still just little white flecks just the same as when I first noticed them just over a month ago. I don't think the bees are interested enough in that side of the box to bother with them - those frames only had a couple of bees here and there on them when I last looked although the rest of the hive is reasonably full.

Not enough workers yet to cover the brood so they're just removing the eggs but the queen wants to lay more. Hopefully they'll stop struggling before long - are you in a position to donate a frame of emerging brood to give them a boost?

 

[B+.]

Not enough workers yet to cover the brood so they're just removing the eggs but the queen wants to lay more. Hopefully they'll stop struggling before long - are you in a position to donate a frame of emerging brood to give them a boost?

Yes. It quite possibly is chilled brood but I thought he would have commented on dark coloured larvae if he had noticed that.
http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/gallery/displayImage.cfm?image=39

 

[BeeJayBee]

Not enough workers yet to cover the brood so they're just removing the eggs but the queen wants to lay more.


It hasn't been a warm spring- and it sounds as if your bees are trying to keep themselves, and the brood, warm but are failing. They're trying to stay on both the warmest side of the box whilst at the same time trying to move upwards to the top - where it's warmest.

A colony with only four frames of brood should not be in a stack comprising a brood box and a super, so either remove the super or put the frames of brood into a nuc (along with some stores) to give them a chance.

 

[Erichalfbee]

How many supers have you got on top?
You say you pulled the super nearest the brood off....that suggests you have another,maybe,on top of that........and three frames of brood.

Take the supers off. Feed them a little if they have no stores whatsoever in the brood box..
Add insulation to the top and maybe close the OMF.
Wait
Put your super frames with honey/nectar in the freezer and bring out to put back when the colony is stronger. They are struggling as it is with all that space.
Better still. If you have a Paynes poly nuc box it takes six frames and that would do nicely to pop them into.

 

[pargyle]

You need to listen to all the advice above .. you have got your bees in far too big a space .. get rid of the supers, if you don't have a poly nuc then dummy off the empty space in your brood box and put some insulation in there. Put an empty super on top and fill that with insulation. Give them some chance to heat the space they have and I reckon your queen will be laying eggs wall to wall in no time and your workers will have some chance of raising them.

Once the colony has about 6/7 frames of brood then put a super on it. You can store the frames they have already filled for them to use later. If there are no stores on your brood frames put a super with some stores in it under the brood box for a week or so just so that they have some food in the hive. As the colony grows they will add an arc of honey above the brood so you can they remove the super underneath and it will be ready for when they are of a size that can create a surplus.

You should concentrate on getting the colony developed rather than trying to get a crop of honey otherwise you won't get a crop and you will have a weak colony - or worse still - a dead one.

Ah ... didn't see Ericha's post above ... she's on the nail.

 

[midnight sun]

Had a similar problem myself just after the spring came.
Follow the advice already given regarding cutting down the volume of the hive to keep warm. (dummy it down.)
The Queen has a problem of wanting to lay but there are not enough bees to keep the brood warm (as JBM has stated.) If you just put a frame of brood in without enough bees to provide for them then you will make it even harder for the resident bees to cope. They will just neglect the new frame and the brood will die and then rot. Eventually the Queen may slow laying down as the workers feed her less as they cannot cope with the brood surface she is trying to produce. This then produces less bees which aren't enough to keep the brood warm. See the pattern? It's a 'catch 22' for the bees. Break the cycle by reducing the hive size, then put a feed on (1:1 with Hivemakers Thymol mix to stop the feed going mouldy and help nosema if there is any.) This should give the bees a chance to tip the scale in their favour. Once there are enough bees to keep the extra brood warm and fed they should expand at an exponential rate. Just my opinion based on my recent experience. (Mine are now doing well.) Hope that explains things. Hope it helps.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Yes. It quite possibly is chilled brood but I thought he would have commented on dark coloured larvae if he had noticed that.
http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/gallery/displayImage.cfm?image=39

My thought are that they are removing the eggs before they get a chance to hatch. She definitely wants to lay.
As Midnightsun says, give them a boost of just brood won't work as they won't be able to keep it warm, but if you are confident enough to identify a frame with not too much capped brood and with bees actually emerging then that could help.
Everyone else has covered the glaringly obvious one - way too much space but that's what happens when people wander on here claiming centuries of experience and saying there's no harm in slapping a couple or three supers on 'just in case' they need it. Reduce it down, even if it's only getting rid of all the supers - they're not going to need them for quite a while.Give them less space to heat - you'll be surprised how fast they pick up

 

[itma]

...
Better still. If you have a Paynes poly nuc box it takes six frames and that would do nicely to pop them into.

That would be £30 well spent.

 

[theeggman]

That would be £30 well spent.

+1

 

[midnight sun]

As an afterthought (I'm particularly good at that, when it's too late) If you had a spare hive with supers on (which you don't by the look of your avatar) you can sometimes take a frame from the super (usually has younger bees and less fliers) and shake some extra bees into the depleted brood box to bolster the workforce immediately. I did this and it seemed to work well. Apparently the younger bees that have less ability to sting won't fight with the resident bees. No doubt if I'm wrong then someone will correct me, but I got that tip from a bee inspector (so should be safe to try). Don't know what the others think.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Hello! I've had a hive of bees for a year but I've noticed a problem that's not too easy to search for online, as the words used to describe it are common enough that all sorts of beekeeping things come up, so I wonder whether anyone has any suggestions for how to sort it? I've dipped into other threads on here in the past and found it to be a very useful place to come for just about everything bee related.

Just before I left them for winter, I noticed that only the last 3 (I think) frames on one side were full of brood. Early this spring, I had a look inside and found the same again - or rather a friend of mine found the same: I'd only checked just past the middle and assumed I'd gone queenless over the winter, as it was all just empty frames with lots of eggs dotted around as per laying workers. He came over and pulled out a frame from the other side which was quite healthy, and said that the bees would sort out whoever it was laying eggs all over the place.

Since then, I've had a look twice, and more than a month on from my first inspection, they're still the same with empty frames and worker eggs, then 3 or 4 frames of brood. On my last inspection, I pulled off the super directly above the brood box, and found that they'd built bridge comb between the brood box and the bottom of the super frames on the same side, and the bridge was full of brood where the comb split (I was going to go onto a brood-and-a-half this year, so left the excluder out). I can't remember where the brood in that super was though but I think it was concentrated on the same side.

I was hoping to have another look this weekend, but the weather forecast doesn't look too hopeful at the moment, but whenever I can, should I perhaps try moving the end frames with brood somewhere into the middle in the hope that they'll rediscover the full size of the brood box? Or perhaps put an excluder in, to force the brood sideways instead of up? Or let them get on with it? It shouldn't be that the East side (where the brood is) is any warmer than anywhere else as the South is open to sun for much of the day and the West isn't shaded until quite late. I might also try putting something under the mesh floor to see if it's to do with cold wind coming up from underneath.

In the meantime, there's lots of pollen going in all the time and the supers are getting fuller, so all seems to be in order apart from the fact that they are ignoring all of the space I'm giving them at the bottom.

Any thoughts?


I hope this is a sensible section to put this in - I'm definitely still a beginner, and the problem seems fairly minor and will probably be an easy fix, hence not jumping straight into the main beekeeping forum.

Three frames of brood will be lost in a full size brood box and having supers on exacerbates the problem. That small colony are battling to survive and would be best if placed in a nuc or in a restricted space within your box, say the three frames with an empty frame either side to grow into plus a frame of food. Dummy off the remaining space until they grow then progressively add extra space as they need it. Certainly no super until they show they are in need of it.
As things seem to have developed I suspect your bees just aren't strong enough for brood and a half. Maybe once you have sorted their space and got them going they might be but I think the queen might need replacement.
As to the random eggs - could the white specks just be flecks of wax?

 

[BeeJayBee]

As an afterthought (I'm particularly good at that, when it's too late) If you had a spare hive with supers on (which you don't by the look of your avatar) you can sometimes take a frame from the super (usually has younger bees and less fliers) and shake some extra bees into the depleted brood box to bolster the workforce immediately. I did this and it seemed to work well.

Numbers can be boosted by putting the hive on the site of a larger colony, returning bees will have pollen or nectar so will be welcomed, and will provide much needed overnight warmth.

As to the random eggs - could the white specks just be flecks of wax?

White flecks could also be varroa faeces.

 

[Pollen]

Thanks - your diagnoses all make perfect sense.

Everyone else has covered the glaringly obvious one - way too much space but that's what happens when people wander on here claiming centuries of experience and saying there's no harm in slapping a couple or three supers on 'just in case' they need it.

I'm guilty of at least half of that - I didn't take anything off the hive last winter: as it was my first winter, I didn't know how much they'd need for themselves, so I thought I'd leave it all and see how much they'd used at the beginning of spring so that I could know roughly how much to leave them next winter. I never considered the space for warmth. So to answer the questions about what's on there at the moment: there were 2 supers on over winter (one and a half full), and since that second one was almost full a couple of weeks ago, I put an empty one on again then, as I didn't know exactly when I'd next be able to inspect them (I'm at university 50 miles away, so inspections are limited to weekends when I'm not busy until I sort out an MOT).

Thanks for replies - hopefully I'll be able to sort it out if there's a gap in the weather on Saturday or Sunday.


Also, adding another frame from elsewhere isn't an option for me yet, as I've only got one colony at the moment. Luckily in this circumstance, there's so much space to reduce that that'll probably do the trick.

White flecks could also be varroa faeces.

They could be something else - hadn't thought of that, or wax flecks - I'll have a closer look at the weekend if the weather is all right.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Regardless of the weather - sort the supers out ASAP it will only take seconds