British Black Bee

[Finman]

How's your Finnish, these days?

In these days this forum is a pleasant place compared to old days.

 

[Into the lions den]

No, I remember a presentation by Dr Helen Thompson who did lots of work on background populations around the country and everywhere had Amm as the greatest contributor to the genes in the drones in the air, so subsequent generations, pretty much wherever you open mate an Amm virgin in the UK her progeny are more than likely over 75% Amm.

For more years than I care to remember I have had a running disagreement with some of the 'local black bee' people about us breeding for our desired criteria, using the occasional bought in breeder queen and also offering the same stack, and Buckfast, who stated vehemently that we were ruining the local gene pool and they could not keep their bees free of our genetics (some added the term inferior). I always pointed out that it is not us undoing their work, actually very much the reverse. We always find that the local black bee genetics dominate..very much as the study above suggests...and if we put a nice well bred line into the field colonies and leave it as a free standing unit, raising a new queen from it when required, in 3 to 4 generations here you see the colony has largely reverted back to local normals, the bees are darker, runnier, swarmier, sometimes nippier, production becomes more uneven. Eventually they become just local bees. Normally pretty mediocre and harder work.

It is a constant battle to keep our genetics fresh and up to scratch.

Enthusiasts just tell you dominating matings proves the bees are the best adapted to the area....but that's not a great argument..or you would all turn your pet cats out to be mated with the local dominant feral tomcat. Just because their drones dominate does not actually dictate that as desireable.

Ingress of the local be into ours is the main direction of travel...not so much from ours to theirs. Even when we have more bees than all the locals combined, there are still abundant black drones in the air at mating time and field colonies revert pretty quickly. We have to saturate the areas around our mating units or the queens raised there have progeny that are a harder job to manage.

 

[rolande]

How's your Finnish, these days?

I can't comment on rook66's Finnish of course, but I have noticed an incredible improvement in Finman's written English over the last summer. I've been reading his posts since the old BBKA forum days but have rarely understood what he was saying without rereading at least a couple of times, now I understand it easily. Almost like a new man!

 

[user 20833]

For my own bees, the last time they were sampled, what I considered to be near pure actually fell slightly short of 90% Amm and what I considered to be highly hybridised (with yellow banding on the abdomen) taken as a control sample only slightly less Amm than what I considered pure!

That's interesting and suggests that we should judge our bees by their performance/behaviour rather than what colour they are.

 

[Erichalfbee]

That's interesting and suggests that we should judge our bees by their performance/behaviour rather than what colour they are.

Absolutely!

 

[Finman]

I can't comment on rook66's Finnish of course, but I have noticed an incredible improvement in Finman's written English over the last summer. I've been reading his posts since the old BBKA forum days but have rarely understood what he was saying without rereading at least a couple of times, now I understand it easily. Almost like a new man!

Perhaps it depends on diabetes 2, when I got it. First I did not understand it, I was so tired.
My medication is not good either to day, but after 2 weeks it will be changed.

But thanks to your comment Rolande. Interesting to hear that.

 

[Swarm]

That's interesting and suggests that we should judge our bees by their performance/behaviour rather than what colour they are.

That's a fair point but it also suggests that performance and behaviour are not considered.
I did post some figures earlier.

 

[pargyle]

.....and get of my back man!

Tut tut ... have I touched a raw spot ?

No need to be rude ... and until you have them tested ... they are local mongrels ... Does it matter ?.. Possibly only if you are passing them off as AMM and selling them as such... which, of course, you would not do .....

 

[pargyle]

In these days this forum is a pleasant place compared to old days.

I agree... peace and love Finnie !

 

[Apiarist]

Thanks.
"A high level of Irish alleles being present in the European reference populations may reflect the common ancestry of these two populations. The very limited gene flow from the European populations sampled into the Irish population indicates the isolation of the Irish population while the presence of unique microsatellite alleles and mitochondrial haplotypes in the Irish population probably indicates independent evolution of the Irish population since its isolation from mainland Europe."
These sentences clearly make a mockery of your understanding and take of the paper, Irish bees aren't Dutch, your narrative is a nonsense if you actually read the abstract you kindly linked.

Hello mbc
thank you for replying, although I sense from your tone you are no inclined to enter into a conversation on this topic, but I will just draw the attention of any readers to a few small points to consider:

1. I never said (all) Irish bees (meaning the Apis mellifera sampled here in Ireland in 2017) were Dutch, I paraphrased a paragraph in Jack's paper, to give some extra info. these Dutch haplotypes account for 40% of bees in the sample(s).
2. The paragraph that mbc partially quotes is an interpretation of the DNA results, focusing on alleles.
3. The interpretation hinges on the assumption of the existence of a "land bridge with Britain" and Ireland, I believe since 2017 there has been further evidence that shows that this land bridge could never have existed.
4. I will simply quote the first two sentences of the next paragraph without comment, "Some of the historical linkages and the more recent importation influences of the European mellifera have been shown in this study. The majority of Irish mitochondrial sequences were identical to three haplotypes that were described from the Netherlands, while one was identical to a French haplotype and another to one from Colonsay Island in Scotland"
5. And finally (this is NOT A BIG DEAL) I know of two occasions in which senior members of the Native bee community have made public (essay and webinar) reference to apiaries being restocked with skeps from the Netherlands, albeit the beekeeper in question was just a child at the time, but none-the-less has described it for us, for a historical record: Let me quote a well known, and well thought of Native beekeeper here in Northern Ireland before the publication of this paper, "Historically some Amm was brought into the British Isles from France and Holland. That will have left a genetic trace I imagine but does it matter? Not to me"

This subject of finding out from where and when the bees arrived here in Ireland is academic, meaning of no practical use, like watching a documentary about skep beekeeping, very interesting,... and I think we will leave it at that!

 

[madasafish]

That's interesting and suggests that we should judge our bees by their performance/behaviour rather than what colour they are.

Totally wrong. Looks are all .
Who cares for honey yields or temperament ? Far better just looking at your bees and getting stung.

 

[mbc]

That's interesting and suggests that we should judge our bees by their performance/behaviour rather than what colour they are.

Of course, but long term if you are seeking to propagate from your bees then far more consistency in their progeny comes from breeding within subspecies, rather than the hybrid vigour you might get from a mixed bee, which seldom keep the qualities you're looking for in subsequent generations.
This is my experience anyway.

 

[pargyle]

Perhaps it depends on diabetes 2, when I got it. First I did not understand it, I was so tired.
My medication is not good either to day, but after 2 weeks it will be changed.

But thanks to your comment Rolande. Interesting to hear that.

Your sense of humour has taken a decidely British turn as well ... you make me laugh quite a lot - perhaps we've been a bad influence on you ?

 

[Newbeeneil]

That's interesting and suggests that we should judge our bees by their performance/behaviour rather than what colour they are.

I don't think that just goes for bees!

 

[elainemary]

No, I remember a presentation by Dr Helen Thompson who did lots of work on background populations around the country and everywhere had Amm as the greatest contributor to the genes in the drones in the air, so subsequent generations, pretty much wherever you open mate an Amm virgin in the UK her progeny are more than likely over 75% Amm.

Yes I read that too. Presume if locally adapted (esp. in colder climate) survive longer, reinforcing the Dawkins principle of the selfish gene

 

[Finman]

- perhaps we've been a bad influence on you ?

You are right. 25 years ago I thought that English people are friendly and clever.

 

[Finman]

Yes I read that too. Presume if locally adapted (esp. in colder climate) survive longer, reinforcing the Dawkins principle of the selfish gene

Locally adapted in cold climate .

Here you see the hives of Finnish beekeeper Sari Sivula, who has bees on Sodankylä in Finland. It is a reindeer behind the hives on its own natural pasture. Sari's hudband is a reindeer keeper.

I think that bees are Carniolans.

 

[Finman]

Bees locally adapted in cold climate .

Sari Sivula's apiary situation in Sodankylä Lapland, Finland.
21. December sun rises a'clock 12:09 and sets down 12:14.
5 minutes up in Sodankylä.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I think that bees are Carniolans.

But what breed are the reindeer?

 

[Finman]

But what breed are the reindeer?

It is local mongrel from Ice Ace.
Reindeers were tamed about 800 years ago by Sami people. But they are semitamed.