Breeder queens: Myth or reality

[jeff33]

I am conscious that I am potentially triggering civil unrest here but I will still ask. What is the justification for some of the price tags on so called breeder queens?

Aren't they inseminated queens tested for a season and whose daughters have also been tested? On the latter how would this be meaningful if I breed from such queen but daughters are open mated with random drones in a different part of the UK or EU? Thanks

 

[Ian123]

Ok generalising a bit! If you have selected a random mongrel and get a good 1 with randomly mated daughters you would have to test the off spring. If you have a pure breeder race/line you can within reason expect the first cross f1 even completely random mated to breed true with resulting hybrid vigour. Queens maybe Ii or isolated mated and yes worth the cost due to predictably of offspring. Currently out to dinner so start with that and am sure others will be along

 

[jeff33]

F1s would indeed be 50% of her genes and f2s 25 but this would be true with daughters of any pure breed. The price tag seems to vary a lot depending on the species tho.

 

[B+.]

What is the justification for some of the price tags on so called breeder queens?

Aren't they inseminated queens tested for a season and whose daughters have also been tested? On the latter how would this be meaningful if I breed from such queen but daughters are open mated with random drones in a different part of the UK or EU? Thanks

It depends on what you regard as expensive.
I pay a standard price for island mated queens and a slightly higher price for instrumentally inseminated queens. I then spend about 18 months testing them before I know which, if any, are worth propagating. What value can be put on the breeders knowledge, time, skill and expertise?
If you rely on someone else to do all this work for you, it is reasonable that they should be compensated for it. Otherwise, do it yourself and the cost will be lower (but you will also have to absorb the cost of those you don't propagate).
When you talk about "breeder queens", you have to be clear about what you mean. Is the queen being propagated for race/line conservation or are you also looking for performance improvement? If so, there is a need to test and evaluate the results in some meaningful way. Having selected queens to propagate, you have to decide how you will do it and how heritability of the traits you want will be affected. If you lack the means to control the process and are reliant on "open mating with random drones" (no matter where they are), you will lose some of the value you sought to achieve. How much you lose depends on the qualities of the mates your virgin queens find (in maternal selection).
It seems to me that you're really looking at this all wrong. Instead of asking is a "breeder queen" worth the price, you have to decide what it is that you are trying to achieve first.

 

[jeff33]

I probably look at it from my own perspective with my current resources and whilst an IM or artificially insimanated queen is a price I can justify paying to improve my stock, selected breeder queen isn't.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the work involved in testing these and daughters to ensure quality and continuous improvement of a line and this is perhaps further guarantees from a reputable breeder.

 

[oliver90owner]

Doesn’t retaining a queen for a year and checking for fecundity, etc, considerably raise the cost for any breeder queen?

Quality costs. It is just the same for for other comodities. Cheap, epay rubbish is often only worth what you pay for it.

If the price were too high, they would not sell. It is all about supply and demand for a particular quality item.

 

[birdsandbees]

think of it in terms of a pedigree animal, the breeder has selected breeding material for years and kept records of the stock and results regarding desirable traits, this breeding female can then be reliably used to create further generations with a high value by the buyer IF used with other selected males.

If you bought a pedigree/breeder grade hen but crossed her with farmyard rooster you may get daughters with good egg production of a decent value but they would no longer be of use for further breeding, if you bought the same hen and put her with your own pedigree/breeder grade Cock the progeny would potentially be as good as the parent stock or even better AND could be used for further breeding programmes making them more valuable.

so your breeder queen while expensive has the potential to generate more income for you if used correctly, hence the cost.

 

[Finman]

t
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so your breeder queen while expensive has the potential to generate more income for you if used correctly, hence the cost.

I know 1000 hive owners and they do not use expencive breeder queens. They use their own open mated queens in grafting.

The big yield comes brom pastures. It is not sure at all that you get your moneys back.
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[jenkinsbrynmair]

I probably look at it from my own perspective with my current resources and whilst an IM or artificially insimanated queen is a price I can justify paying to improve my stock, selected breeder queen isn't.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the work involved in testing these and daughters to ensure quality and continuous improvement of a line and this is perhaps further guarantees from a reputable breeder.

How many eggs does a breeder queen lay in a season? how many grafts can you make from the larvae? how many new queens (open mated or not) can you sell from this one breeder in a year? how much of a premium can you add because your new queens are from a proven pedigree fecund stock?

There lies part of the answer.

Breeder queens may not be such good value for money for someone thinking of breeding a couple of dozen queens in the spare space behind the greenhouse in the back garden, but for a larger outfit...........

 

[Hunajavelho]

I know 1000 hive owners and they do not use expencive breeder queens. They use their own open mated queens in grafting.

The big yield comes brom pastures. It is not sure at all that you get your moneys back.
.
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They also do more time consuming swarm prevention, they also have more desease nosema, chalkbrood and AFB. They also have problem with starvation in spring.
This also costa alot of work hours and money.

They too would benefit from breeding but, rather choose to only evolve hive components.

Pastures are alwasy importent and should be chosen carefully, but we can also choose who to work the great pastures.


Breeder queens are worth the price, breeding makes a difference, but it is nit easy and takes alot of work and longterm commitment.
That is. Why is the price is definetely worth it as it gives you something to start with rather than just start a breeding program from the start.

 

[Finman]

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What price the queen has and what features.
Everybody can use his brain.

 

[For want of a better word]

16000 queens ( that is 7% of the colonies in the UK) are imported annually to requeen / replace mostly by hobby beekeepers... according to Norman.

They come mostly from Greece and are sold on by the bigger importers ( Beckies... B.S. Honey... etc etc0 £35 on average? Italian /Anotolian mongrels open mated by the ton!!

Do not confuse these with Breeder queens that are from tested and selected stock and trade for considerably more!

 

[Finman]

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Problem is that queen sellers are not the most honest people on the globe.
That is my experience. And they can insist what ever.

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[For want of a better word]

.
Problem is that queen sellers are not the most honest people on the globe.
That is my experience. And they can insist what ever.

.

 

[B+.]

Do not confuse these with Breeder queens that are from tested and selected stock and trade for considerably more!

Breeders will be unwilling to sell their best stock as they'll want to use them in their own breeding. However, you may be able to get a daughter at a reasonable price.

 

[For want of a better word]

Breeders will be unwilling to sell their best stock as they'll want to use them in their own breeding. However, you may be able to get a daughter at a reasonable price.

£300?... £500....
I have never paid that.... but that would be the price for a tested Cornish ( DNA certifies and field tested) Amm... and before any one asks... I do not have any for sale !!

How much to the Pedigree Breeder Amc go for?

 

[B+.]

£300?... £500....
I have never paid that.... but that would be the price for a tested Cornish ( DNA certifies and field tested) Amm... and before any one asks... I do not have any for sale !!

How much to the Pedigree Breeder Amc go for?

I've answered that question before. I've never paid that much for a single queen either. To answer you directly, I bought two instrumentally inseminated VSH queens for £70 each last summer. I have island mated queens that cost me £60 each. Those prices you quoted are ridiculous. If you are a member of a breeding group, you don't have to pay that sort of money. The price is set for the group (i.e. there is a set price for island mated queens and a set price for II queens).
The quality is another thing. All of the queens I buy in have pedigrees but I select the very best of them for propagation. It's not enough to propagate a queen just because she has a pedigree. Prof Ruttner talked about the difference between breeding value and economic value. The queens I work with have to have both. That's why I test them so rigorously. My breeding stock will usually have gone through 2 winters without treatments AND performed well

Added:

The breeding values were published a few days ago (www.beebreed.eu ) so I am looking at what I want to propagate this year. One of the queens I am considering propagating has breeding values of 110% in defensive behaviour, calmness during inspection and swarming drive but she has a varroa index of 119% (that's about 2 standard deviations above the mean). However, she built up slower than others and missed the main flow so her honey yield was low (81% - 2 s.d. below the mean) so I would have to balance that with drones from a queen that performed particularly well in that area while not reducing the values in other traits. Real breeding is a balancing act.

 

[Hunajavelho]

B+. Is there no one selling tested 2 year old AMC queens, surely they Would cost more?
You gave the price of pedigree queens but not tested breeder.

Buckfast queens with pedigree control-mated is usually between 60-130€.
Two year old tested breeder queens go from 200 to 700€.

 

[For want of a better word]

B+. Is there no one selling tested 2 year old AMC queens, surely they Would cost more?
You gave the price of pedigree queens but not tested breeder.

Buckfast queens with pedigree control-mated is usually between 60-130€.
Two year old tested breeder queens go from 200 to 700€.

How do you describe a Buckfast?

 

[B+.]

B+. Is there no one selling tested 2 year old AMC queens, surely they Would cost more?
You gave the price of pedigree queens but not tested breeder.

Buckfast queens with pedigree control-mated is usually between 60-130€.
Two year old tested breeder queens go from 200 to 700€.

The prices for control-mated carnica are definitely at the bottom end of what you quoted.
Generally, the queens that are used for drones/drone-producing queens (i.e. 1b/4a) are a year, or two, older than "breeder" queens (2a). I hesitate to say there are none out there that cost more but I haven't encountered any. I have only seen the prices I quoted advertised.
The culture seems much more cooperative and helpful in BeeBreed than appears to be the case elsewhere. I have even had excellent 2 year-old 2a queens given to me as a gift. I have also had gifts of micro-pipettes of drone sperm from good 4a colonies to help me improve my stock. I am more than happy to reciprocate in whatever way I can.