Black Bees

[Herbalist]

I had a swarm move into one of my bait hives last year with an unmarked queen. They are black. They are also very docile. I could probably handle them without a beesuite. They are extremely prolific and have now (24th April) filled a commercial brood-box with lots of capped brood still to hatch.
I intend to split them tommorrow - weather permitting. Today it was piddling down with rain and they were still out foraging as if it was perfectly normal. What are these bees? They are quite different to my other hives (Buckfast). They seem quite happy in the rain. Could these be our native black bee adapted to our climate? The hive is in Leicestrshire. Does anyone know of a population of Black Bees in the Midlands?

 

[deemann1]

apis milifera milifera

 

[B+.]

I had a swarm move into one of my bait hives last year with an unmarked queen. They are black. They are also very docile. I could probably handle them without a beesuite. They are extremely prolific and have now (24th April) filled a commercial brood-box with lots of capped brood still to hatch.
I intend to split them tommorrow - weather permitting. Today it was piddling down with rain and they were still out foraging as if it was perfectly normal. What are these bees? They are quite different to my other hives (Buckfast). They seem quite happy in the rain. Could these be our native black bee adapted to our climate? The hive is in Leicestrshire. Does anyone know of a population of Black Bees in the Midlands?

You should have them tested

 

[madasafish]

Sounds like Carniolans.. very prolific early on..

 

[Stedic]

I have hives in NW Leicestershire. My mentor and I both acquired swarms with very dark bees who are equally as prolific.

I've no idea of their origin but perhaps someone is using a lot of dark or carnolian bees locally and thus the local mongrels are like that?

I noted over winter they they flew in much colder temperatures than the others in the apiary but seem to have used fewer stores despite having more bees.

They're increasingly less arsey when inspected - if it continues I'll use them to play with queen rearing.

 

[birdsandbees]

I'm going over to the dark side this year, Having been more impressed with some of the dark swarms and cut outs I have in the apiaries.
here's a snip from Dave Cushman website.

What are the attributes of the Black Bee that all these organisations find so attractive compared to other sub-species? They tend to be factors that give this bee an advantage over other sub-species in the North European climate. Factors that have evolved during thousands of years in the environment of the region.

Low temperature flying 5.5°C (46°F)
Thrifty use of stores
Cessation of brood rearing in a dearth
Early cessation of brood rearing in late summer
Good wintering characteristics
One of the attractions for importing other pure bred sub-species is docility. Beekeepers have seen how gentle both the New Zealand Italian and the Carnica bees are, and working with such bees is much more pleasant than handling bad tempered colonies. Yet the very act of importing these sub-species aggravates the problem of bad-temper generally, for one of the prime reasons for bad-temper is crossing different sub-species of bees (This is termed F2 Aggression. R.P.).

The Black bee has an undeserved reputation for being bad-tempered. Pure bred Black bees selected for docility are just as easy to handle as New Zealand Italians. One only has to look at some of the old bee photographs to see that very little protection was used by beekeepers in the last century.

 

[taurus]

They sound like one of my colonies - very prolific, go through the winter well and build up quickly, produce a huge amount of honey, well behaved most of the time but can get tetchy under certain conditions - however they soon calm down if left alone.

They won't tolerate rough handling during inspections so gentleness is the key. They are the first to get stroppy if there's a storm brewing.
But they will let you know they've had enough before they get nasty. You hear the note of the hive change, if you pack in straight away and leave them alone they soon calm down.

Mine came from a very experienced beekeeper who has an isolated apiary and only keeps black bees. I love them and will be trying to raise a nuc off them this May.

 

[B+.]

Sounds like Carniolans.. very prolific early on..

That's why I suggested he has them tested.
It's easy to convince yourself of something you want to believe. It's much better to rely on objective data

 

[thibault]

I am in Leicester, I keep Amm (black bee), the breeder is in Ireland. I use foundationless frames so maybe quite a few of my drones out there loool. They are exactly how Taurus described them.

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[Poly Hive]

The AMM has some lovely attributes, beautiful cappings and supercedure, and also some serious negatives.

Very prone to nosema and do not cope with stress well.

I am talking from personal experience not some airy fairy theory.

PH

 

[user 6228]

can you clarify the type of stress?

 

[Poly Hive]

Migratory beekeeping.

PH

 

[Beefriendly]

They tend to be factors that give this bee an advantage over other sub-species in the North European climate. Factors that have evolved during thousands of years in the environment of the region.

They evolved to survive in the wild in a North European environment where there where no other sub species to to compete with!
That is a very different issue from these bees having qualities desired by beekeepers. These need to be selected and bred for in the ongoing attempt to domesticate bees.
One of the survival traits appears to be frequent swarming. In my area the locals swarm annually and often bi-annually despite any attempts to prevent them. It's one of several reasons, why I personally don't use local bees.
However, you should use what ever type you wish, but in the sake of interest you should compare and contrast different strains in your own apiary before adopting an opinion from a web site run by a self-professed black bee man....it does give a rather biased picture.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

I am in Leicester, I keep Amm (black bee), the breeder is in Ireland. I use foundationless frames so maybe quite a few of my drones out there loool. They are exactly how Taurus described them.

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I have no doubt that Taurus was honest in his description, but what ever he was describing, it was not AMM bees.

 

[birdsandbees]

They evolved to survive in the wild in a North European environment where there where no other sub species to to compete with!
That is a very different issue from these bees having qualities desired by beekeepers. These need to be selected and bred for in the ongoing attempt to domesticate bees.
One of the survival traits appears to be frequent swarming. In my area the locals swarm annually and often bi-annually despite any attempts to prevent them. It's one of several reasons, why I personally don't use local bees.
However, you should use what ever type you wish, but in the sake of interest you should compare and contrast different strains in your own apiary before adopting an opinion from a web site run by a self-professed black bee man....it does give a rather biased picture.

True, I have read numerous opinions from those that have handled and kept AMM's and as is true will all sub species they can be selected for desirable traits, I've had some savage local mutts but also some incredibly calm prolific ones, I will give near pure AMM's a go and see how I get on with selecting from the best and binning the rest.
old film clips demonstrate what can be achieved with selection of AMM's as they say 'the camera doesn't lie'
I have tried Carniolan (swarm crazy) and Fastbucks (mixed bag) with varied results but was unable to breed from them beyond first generation as is well documented, having slowly moved over to more local cross breeds with at least the appearance of AMM I am prepared to put the effort in and see for myself how tested as almost pure AMM's fair.

 

[G4WIL]

I had a swarm move into one of my bait hives last year with an unmarked queen. They are black. They are also very docile. I could probably handle them without a beesuite. They are extremely prolific and have now (24th April) filled a commercial brood-box with lots of capped brood still to hatch.

I intend to split them tommorrow - weather permitting. Today it was piddling down with rain and they were still out foraging as if it was perfectly normal. What are these bees? They are quite different to my other hives (Buckfast). They seem quite happy in the rain. Could these be our native black bee adapted to our climate? The hive is in Leicestrshire. Does anyone know of a population of Black Bees in the Midlands?

Do they carry grey bands between segments , this is one of the Hall marks of the carnie?


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[Beefriendly]

AMM I am prepared to put the effort in and see for myself how tested as almost pure AMM's fair.

I ran some Amm's for a number of years from what sounds like the same source. Nice bees easy to handle, bit runny on the comb but not prolific honey collectors even when large colonies. Martyrs to chalk brood as well.
I tried breeding mine with the local drones but even the first generation (F1) produced nightmare bees. I hope your local drones are better than mine you may well fare better.
As for Carniolans and Buckfast you are at the mercy of your supplier/breeder. I suggest you choose carefully. Their queens are not of similar qualities or standards, there are some very good breeders (who rarely need to advertise in the glossies) and several "stack em high sell 'em cheap" merchants. I took a punt on some Romanian Buckfast last year, which whilst racing away this spring, 3 out of 5 hives are decidedly tetchy. Nowt temper wise when compared to my local savages but their tetchy buzzy behaviour in the apiary really stands out in comparison to my Danish and German Buckfast kittens.

 

[thibault]

I ran some Amm's for a number of years from what sounds like the same source. Nice bees easy to handle, bit runny on the comb but not prolific honey collectors even when large colonies. Martyrs to chalk brood as well.
I tried breeding mine with the local drones but even the first generation (F1) produced nightmare bees. I hope your local drones are better than mine you may well fare better.
As for Carniolans and Buckfast you are at the mercy of your supplier/breeder. I suggest you choose carefully. Their queens are not of similar qualities or standards, there are some very good breeders (who rarely need to advertise in the glossies) and several "stack em high sell 'em cheap" merchants. I took a punt on some Romanian Buckfast last year, which whilst racing away this spring, 3 out of 5 hives are decidedly tetchy. Nowt temper wise when compared to my local savages but their tetchy buzzy behaviour in the apiary really stands out in comparison to my Danish and German Buckfast kittens.

Very true for the chalkbrood issue, can you pm me your breeder? Thank you

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[For want of a better word]

I had a swarm move into one of my bait hives last year with an unmarked queen. They are black. They are also very docile. I could probably handle them without a beesuite. They are extremely prolific and have now (24th April) filled a commercial brood-box with lots of capped brood still to hatch.
I intend to split them tommorrow - weather permitting. Today it was piddling down with rain and they were still out foraging as if it was perfectly normal. What are these bees? They are quite different to my other hives (Buckfast). They seem quite happy in the rain. Could these be our native black bee adapted to our climate? The hive is in Leicestrshire. Does anyone know of a population of Black Bees in the Midlands?

Bee Improvement and Bee Breeding Association ( BIBBA) web pages will give further and better advice.

Oh deary me.... a contentious post that will rattle the Trolls and the 'nere do wells!

Possibly Native bees ( Apis mellifera mellifera)

Unfortunately there will now follow a number of posts from those who have little real knowledge of the Native honey bee to the British Islands, doubting even the existence of Amm or how widely distributed it remains..... mostly misguided zealots who single ( or is it simple) mindedly only favour exotic imports. IMOHO !

Bee Improvement and Bee Breeding Association ( BIBBA) web pages will give further and better advice.

dare I say....
Yeghes da

 

[G4WIL]

Bee Improvement and Bee Breeding Association ( BIBBA) web pages will give further and better advice.



Oh deary me.... a contentious post that will rattle the Trolls and the 'nere do wells!



Possibly Native bees ( Apis mellifera mellifera)



Unfortunately there will now follow a number of posts from those who have little real knowledge of the Native honey bee to the British Islands, doubting even the existence of Amm or how widely distributed it remains..... mostly misguided zealots who single ( or is it simple) mindedly only favour exotic imports. IMOHO !



Bee Improvement and Bee Breeding Association ( BIBBA) web pages will give further and better advice.



dare I say....

Yeghes da

Ha ha , they took the British out of their name !


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