Black Bees

[Quis Custodiet]

Beowulf Cooper stated "occupy 14 BS frames when unconstrained" so you may wish to check your sources. 14 National brood frames sounds like double brood to me.

He did indeed write that. He also advocated using a single National brood box to house these bees on the basis that the more prolific strains which were not AMM would swarm and be unable to survive. With respect, 14 national brood frames sounds to me to be approximately the space afforded by a brood box and super. The Irish CDB hive, the National hive and hives in western Europe where AMM was the indigenous bee were all hives of a similar capacity and it was only after the importation of more vigorous bees in the last century that a need was felt for larger hives. I have known many people keep AMM type bees and they scarcely filled a single broodbox...anything larger and all the honey was downstairs!

 

[For want of a better word]

Beowulf Cooper stated "occupy 14 BS frames when unconstrained" so you may wish to check your sources. 14 National brood frames sounds like double brood to me.

Hence the popular brood and one half...... although one of our Cornish Amm keepers used 14x12 quite successfully!

Shock Horror!!

Yeghes da

 

[Poly Hive]

And then there is the Glen hive which Amm managed perfectly well.

As these were home made the BB's varied depending on timber availability. I had two and both took 21 National frames if I remember rightly.

Then again I put a 2nd BB on a Nat and went off shore for 14 days and on my return it was full of honey and not a cell of brood so... there you have the two extremes.

PH

 

[B+.]

The hive is in Leicestrshire. Does anyone know of a population of Black Bees in the Midlands?

I think, perhaps, people forget that this is the beginners forum and some of the more entrenched views can overlap onto here.
A statement of fact should have been enough to answer your question. Can anyone answer it with a definitive statement?

 

[Beefriendly]

There is considerable variability in the fecundity of queens and Amm are no exception.
Of the Amm queens I have had experience of, only 1 was a double National brood box queen, the rest were happy to rest their laurels at 5/6/7 frames of brood and could be encouraged no further.
Talking to several other people who have or have kept pure Amm's it would seem a queen requiring a double brood box is an exception, not the rule.
A good point to make is that not everyone wants to keep fecund queens that require a lot of laying room and double brood boxes etc. For them Amm's would, in most cases, be an ideal choice of bee to keep.
And the that most Amm queens are usually happiest in single National brood box should not be used as a brush to tar them with.
They are what they are.

 

[Poly Hive]

The basic answer is yes there are.

The complicated question is are they Amm? I don't think so.

Even as recently as 25 years ago there were colonies of Amm (or they had all the characteristics of) to be found in the more remote areas of Aberdeenshire and around there. In the more populated parts then no there were none.

Work it out from that.

PH

 

[Swarm]

The basic answer is yes there are.

The complicated question is are they Amm? I don't think so.

Even as recently as 25 years ago there were colonies of Amm (or they had all the characteristics of) to be found in the more remote areas of Aberdeenshire and around there. In the more populated parts then no there were none.

Work it out from that.

PH

They could just as easily be pure Amm that swarmed, people buy in queens and bees so nothing is impossible.

 

[B+.]

They could just as easily be pure Amm that swarmed, people buy in queens and bees so nothing is impossible.

Then, and I go back to my original piece of advice, he should get them tested.

 

[DanBee]

He did indeed write that. He also advocated using a single National brood box to house these bees on the basis that the more prolific strains which were not AMM would swarm and be unable to survive. With respect, 14 national brood frames sounds to me to be approximately the space afforded by a brood box and super. The Irish CDB hive, the National hive and hives in western Europe where AMM was the indigenous bee were all hives of a similar capacity and it was only after the importation of more vigorous bees in the last century that a need was felt for larger hives. I have known many people keep AMM type bees and they scarcely filled a single broodbox...anything larger and all the honey was downstairs!

I appreciate the tone of your reply, thank you.

I was wrong when I said "occupy 14 frames", the Cooper quote is actually "brood in 14 BS brood combs"; I was working from memory and didn't want to stir up the ranting fool unnecessarily. I've attached Cooper's quote verbatim for the same reason now. p23 of The Honeybees of the British Isles, part of chapter 3 which details the definition of native bee characteristics.

What I find very dubious is the 'chinese whispers' that have been played with native bees, resulting in a current description of their characteristics which differs significantly from the original sources. "One brood box is enough" is a clear case in point, but this is not a specific dig at you. There is a lot of appetite and aspiration surrounding native bees, and a lot of confusion through high-profile, probably well-meaning, but ill-informed spokesmen, and oft-quoted "facts" regarding characteristics that are little more than best- or worst-case ends of the original quoted spectrum. How many beekeepers are misled into thinking that their bees do not show native characteristics and need to be "improved" in order to be acceptable as "native"?

Note that what Cooper says is that, when unconstrained, native bees (from the less well-favoured areas!) will place brood in no more than 14 BS brood combs, although this may be scattered during a strong flow. I agree with your equivalence of "occupy" as I earlier related it to brood and a half, but Cooper is much more specific: up to 14 combs with brood. There must then also be pollen slabs either side of that brood, honey arcs above and around the brood, space for emerging & re-laying turn-over times, space for incoming stores (and hence scatter!), and so that becomes a double brood scenario - brood and a half would simply be insufficient.

Note also his comments about "no need to search for a bee which is less prolific than needed to fill one National brood box" - his rationale for this "one box" target is purely the ease of management for the migratory beekeeper. This is why he starts with "should do well when confined to 10 or 11 BS Broodcombs" in the first place! Choosing that subset of a population of bees which occupy one brood box, purely for the convenience of the beekeeper, is not classification by breed characteristics nor should it ever be used to underpin selective breeding or conservation. However this is where much of the "native bee crowd" appear to be. The true focus should of course be on his statement of "up to 14 frames with brood" if we are looking to assess the prolificacy of a dark bee against the "native bee" standard. That's about double the size of the current, anecdotal, "one box is enough" standard.

I note that much of the noise regarding native bees is coming out of Cornwall these days; Having taken a regular Feb/Mar week-long holiday in Truro, Newquay, and St. Agnes for the past three years, I do not think Cornwall would count as "less well-favoured parts of the British Isles" - quite the opposite given the mild climate and abundance of early forage. Those "less well-favoured" areas that Cooper refers to probably relate to moorland & fringe moorland, West/North Wales, Borders, etc. Regardless of how we define "less well-favoured", Cooper is still saying is that even bees from these areas could, when not artificially constrained, extend to 14 frames with brood, i.e. double National brood. To select for anything less is selection based upon preference or prejudice, not selection for native bee characteristics.

All said in a constructive and non-confrontational tone of voice.

 

[Beefriendly]

All said in a constructive and non-confrontational tone of voice.

And in the same tone..... of interest to me is that 14 frames of brood laid by Amm's (oval with pollen and honey stores above and around) is roughly the equivalent of 7-8 frames of Buckfast brood frames where many queens tend to lay wall to wall brood in the frames with little or no arcs of honey or pollen. Often just full frames full of brood.
My point, albeit a small one, is that we count frames of brood, when really we should be counting the total area cover by brood as a more accurate estimate of queen fecundity when conversing.

 

[DanBee]

My point, albeit a small one, is that we count frames of brood, when really we should be counting the total area cover by brood as a more accurate estimate of queen fecundity when conversing.

Yes exactly - that's why I was careful to quote the original sentiment of "frames with brood" rather than "frames of brood" - the two are very different measurements.

 

[Beefriendly]

I appreciate the tone of your reply, thank you.

I was wrong when I said "occupy 14 frames", the Cooper quote is actually "brood in 14 BS brood combs"

I think the last sentence is quite telling. Cooper says "This is not a recommendation to utilise a prolific bee, which trends to consume more food in poor weather and need more management attention.
He neglects to say that the increased amount of honey they will bring in good weather more than compensates for the extra mouths to feed.

His next paragraph on pollen collection makes me laugh as he got it so wrong when he says Italian and most other non native types only store enough for 3-6 days. ....
Prior to this he eulogies that "native strains are seldom tempted to fly on sunny days when snow is lying in the ground..... Many foreign strains are stimulated by these conditions........and in many cases land on the snow where they become chilled and die".

I'm afraid I have thrown this book on the floor a time or two in frustration at its biased unbalanced viewpoint. To put it politely I distrust a lot of what he wrote as it appears simply opinionated rather than factual.

 

[For want of a better word]

simply opinionated rather than factual

Pot and Kettle!!!

Yeghes da

 

[Beefriendly]

Yeghes da

 

[For want of a better word]

Nice!
Is that a self portrait?

Mytten da

 

[DanBee]

I think the last sentence is quite telling. Cooper says "This is not a recommendation to utilise a prolific bee, which trends to consume more food in poor weather and need more management attention.
He neglects to say that the increased amount of honey they will bring in good weather more than compensates for the extra mouths to feed.

Sorry, missed this as I became busy with the bees.

"Prolific" is a very loaded term; to Amm enthusiasts it appears to be one of the cornerstones of their practice, a rallying call, and a differentiator between what is right and what is wrong. Perhaps in the way that the terms "honey harvest" or "colony management" are for the 'natural' beekeepers.

The point of my interjection in this thread was to demonstrate that the paranoia over "prolific" bees is misplaced in current Amm thinking; that Cooper himself documented native type bees that exhibited levels of prolificacy that Amm enthusiasts now would decry as "hybridised".

In some ways, and speaking kindly, it therefore seems like we have come full circle. "Prolific" in Cooper-speak appears to refer to Ligustica - not slowing their brood rearing to match reducing temperatures or income. This is very different to the current, loaded, "prolific" in Amm world, which is seemingly shorthand for "more than one brood box".

I hope I have demonstrated that this is quite incorrect. It does question how much else of current Amm definition is a moving target, and whether that movement is based on reality or preference. Bear in mind the racial DNA analysis appears to use a small group of reference specimens chosen "because they exhibit native characteristics" ... chosen by whom and to what definition?!

His next paragraph on pollen collection makes me laugh as he got it so wrong when he says Italian and most other non native types only store enough for 3-6 days. ....
Prior to this he eulogies that "native strains are seldom tempted to fly on sunny days when snow is lying in the ground..... Many foreign strains are stimulated by these conditions........and in many cases land on the snow where they become chilled and die".

I'm afraid I have thrown this book on the floor a time or two in frustration at its biased unbalanced viewpoint. To put it politely I distrust a lot of what he wrote as it appears simply opinionated rather than factual.

Cooper comes across now as a very personable and persuasive man, and a very knowledgeable beekeeper, but with a strongly romantic view of the native bee. Rightly, he started by pointing out that the accepted lore (mostly traced back to Br. Adam) that Amm had died out with IoW disease was incorrect. The original concept of "village bees" (hence the original name of the Village Bee Breeders Association) was heavily romanticised, yet his descriptions were, on the whole, quite nuanced.

Sadly much of this nuance has been lost or rewritten by his later followers, and we end up with the current 'evolution' of the breed standard. And let's not get started on the wilful destruction of locally adapted Amm ecotypes by those who import Amm from Ireland, or the opposite end of the UK, and then pronounce them to be "native"...

Do you remember the hoo-haa about Crufts and pedigree breed standards a few years back? An interesting read here as to the changes and problems incurred, a couple of images (1915 on the left, 2012 on the right) illustrate the moving goalposts:

I fear the same is happening with Amm, and only in the space of 40 years.

 

[mbc]

Sorry, missed this as I became busy with the bees.

"Prolific" is a very loaded term; to Amm enthusiasts it appears to be one of the cornerstones of their practice, a rallying call, and a differentiator between what is right and what is wrong. Perhaps in the way that the terms "honey harvest" or "colony management" are for the 'natural' beekeepers.

The point of my interjection in this thread was to demonstrate that the paranoia over "prolific" bees is misplaced in current Amm thinking; that Cooper himself documented native type bees that exhibited levels of prolificacy that Amm enthusiasts now would decry as "hybridised".

In some ways, and speaking kindly, it therefore seems like we have come full circle. "Prolific" in Cooper-speak appears to refer to Ligustica - not slowing their brood rearing to match reducing temperatures or income. This is very different to the current, loaded, "prolific" in Amm world, which is seemingly shorthand for "more than one brood box".

I hope I have demonstrated that this is quite incorrect. It does question how much else of current Amm definition is a moving target, and whether that movement is based on reality or preference. Bear in mind the racial DNA analysis appears to use a small group of reference specimens chosen "because they exhibit native characteristics" ... chosen by whom and to what definition?!



Cooper comes across now as a very personable and persuasive man, and a very knowledgeable beekeeper, but with a strongly romantic view of the native bee. Rightly, he started by pointing out that the accepted lore (mostly traced back to Br. Adam) that Amm had died out with IoW disease was incorrect. The original concept of "village bees" (hence the original name of the Village Bee Breeders Association) was heavily romanticised, yet his descriptions were, on the whole, quite nuanced.

Sadly much of this nuance has been lost or rewritten by his later followers, and we end up with the current 'evolution' of the breed standard. And let's not get started on the wilful destruction of locally adapted Amm ecotypes by those who import Amm from Ireland, or the opposite end of the UK, and then pronounce them to be "native"...

Do you remember the hoo-haa about Crufts and pedigree breed standards a few years back? An interesting read here as to the changes and problems incurred, a couple of images (1915 on the left, 2012 on the right) illustrate the moving goalposts:

I fear the same is happening with Amm, and only in the space of 40 years.

Crikey!
Anyone who thinks the dogs on the right look better needs their heads read imho.
As for amm/local bees and prolificacy, I've never taken much notice personally.
Many beekeepers round here used to use brood and a half to accommodate the local bees, I find this a bother and tend to manage them in what I call a single brood box system, yet often let's them expand into two in the spring before splitting back around the solstice.
Fwiw I think the strongest arguments for keeping native bees are nothing to do with prolificacy but rather that it's a sustainable model that doesn't require ii or isolated mating to improve the entirety of bees in an area over time. Naysayers of this mentality like to cast their hands I'm the air and claim the situation is hopeless in their area and that they simply have to bring in bees to have anything tidy, I would say they're just being impatient and making sure what they say is reality by perpetuatin the mixed drone background situation by bringing in bees.

 

[Swarm]

Dan,
The breed standards are not the problem, the problem arises with interpretation.
Statements like 'powerful' and 'strength' can stir some imagination, I can tell you. Then, of course, there are the cliques who follow the judges and suddenly a certain dog is winning everything so everyone looks to use him at stud or obtain a pup.
Looking for the instant gratification of red rosettes and CC's and the reputation and notoriety they bring, they follow a trend, a fad but they offer very little to the overall well being of the breed.
Personally, I've not spoken with any black bee enthusiast who put a restriction on the size of the brood nest. There are statements here that claim they can't fill a national. Some may be happy enough in one box perhaps, others want more space. Brood on fourteen frames sounds about right from what I'm seeing.
My current set up is a double brood system using swienty poly nats, so twenty frames. With fat follower boards, the number of brood combs required can be accommodated, ten over eight, eight over eight or whatever. It seemed a better option than brood and a half

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Dan,
The breed standards are not the problem, the problem arises with interpretation.
Statements like 'powerful' and 'strength' can stir some imagination, I can tell you. Then, of course, there are the cliques who follow the judges and suddenly a certain dog is winning everything so everyone looks to use him at stud or obtain a pup.
Looking for the instant gratification of red rosettes and CC's and the reputation and notoriety they bring, they follow a trend, a fad but they offer very little to the overall well being of the breed.
Personally, I've not spoken with any black bee enthusiast who put a restriction on the size of the brood nest. There are statements here that claim they can't fill a national. Some may be happy enough in one box perhaps, others want more space. Brood on fourteen frames sounds about right from what I'm seeing.

This is one of my black bee colonies today - half an hour after they swarmed.
Also makes a mockery of the oft uttered statement on here 'They can't have swarmed, the hive is full of bees!!'

 

[DanBee]

Dan,
The breed standards are not the problem, the problem arises with interpretation.

Agree entirely, whether we're talking dogs, or bees, or whatever.

Personally, I've not spoken with any black bee enthusiast who put a restriction on the size of the brood nest. There are statements here that claim they can't fill a national. Some may be happy enough in one box perhaps, others want more space.

I come across the "one box" sentiment often enough that I keep a bookmark in Cooper's book at that page.

A vocal proponent of "one box" who immediately springs to mind is Roger Patterson, who tours the country for BIBBA running queen raising workshops, and who controls and is adding to Dave Cushman's site - e.g. this page on prolificacy amongst RP's extensive additions on breeding and improvement. RP is certainly not alone in voicing the "one box" sentiment as regards black bees.

Brood on fourteen frames sounds about right from what I'm seeing.
My current set up is a double brood system using swienty poly nats, so twenty frames. With fat follower boards, the number of brood combs required can be accommodated, ten over eight, eight over eight or whatever. It seemed a better option than brood and a half

Well I certainly wouldn't disagree on the last point! Glad to see that you are open minded on the characteristics of the bees.