Bees have all gone - photos

[Poggle]

I got roughly a gallon of acetic acid from my chmeist here in wareham.............The other way to get the stuff is at a photographers suppliers coz acetic acid is used as a fixative in black and white film developing.

 

[Finman]

that is the case it is again most unlikely that they could be over run with varroa in their first season UNLESS
Chris

quick overload is possible if the colony rob a hive which is weakened by varroa and almost dying. Mites crawl onto robbers.

 

[Luminos]

, but as OP is planning on new frames not needed. I would go this route...drawn comb is precious but I'd start again. With two colonies.

Reminds me there's still a stack of boxes to sulphur...

Chin up, Luminos, it's nearly another season.

Thanks Susbees - yes, next time I'm aiming for less than 100 colonies, like Chris

 

[Luminos]

If there is a positive Nosema then I would destroy frames and we know the cause. If negative I would use the frames and the hot money is definately on 'Varroa and complications'. At the moment it is all gut hunches and no eveidence.

Good point - I might try and get this done to satisfy my own curiosity. I can ask the vet. (Not to test the bees - I mean to send them off to the relevant lab!)

 

[Finman]

Thanks Susbees - yes, next time I'm aiming for less than 100 colonies, like Chris

that is wise. You need to invest only under million euros to that business.

Keep your man/boy friend in steady work place!

.

 

[oliver90owner]

acetic acid is used as a fixative in black and white film developing.

Certainly used in b/w developing, but only well diluted as a stop bath. Thiosulphate is the basis of fixer.

Suppliers of chemicals, such as Bonnymans, and soap ingredient suppliers (among others) are usually the most competitive.

Used in beekeeping, only 80% is required. Glacial is close to 100% and will freeze easily, so it is not used undiluted for practicality and safety.

Remember it will corrode many uncovered metals (nails and screws are victims if not covered) and dissolve cement in concrete.

Ethanoic fumigation is a comprehensive treatment for nosema, so done properly is a complete disinfectant for this malady, so no need, ever, to destroy frames or comb for this pathogen

RAB.

 

[Luminos]

Sorry, my mistake, I thouht when you wrote ""yes, had to get OA from Maizemore as T'ornes don't post it"" that you didn't realise you could buy it down the road, (not that I object to buying from the UK, Germany or wherever especially if it's better or cheaper).

Personally I'm not convinced about the varroa and non of the experts so far say how they come to this conclusion from the information posted.

Chris

I don't know much about bee diseases but I do know that bees don't die of Varroa.
From the opinions here, it was DWV and possibly whichever one that causes K wings (Bee Paralysis?) wot did for most of them, due to, without doubt, a heavy varroa load which presumably weakened them and/or transmitted the diseases.
(And maybe some Nosema, although I did not see any classic signs such as streaks of bee poo)
Leaving the remainder of the colony too small and weak and cold to cope.

 

[Hivemaker.]

(And maybe some Nosema, although I did not see any classic signs such as streaks of bee poo)

Which if ceranae, you would most likely not have.

 

[Luminos]

Quote: (Poor Luminous. SLS = Save Luminous' Soul.)

So, Finman, you think I'm a sinner?

 

[Luminos]

Chris
if you read this thread started by Luminos,same subject,but without the pictures, it could be the reason that some have come to the conclusion that varroa and the associated viruses could be the problem,or even nosema ceranae. Plus a few previous posts by Luminos about the varroa situation.

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=15149

Yes and I think I put a post about the DWV on DicknDoris's thread fairly recently - thanks, HM.

 

[Luminos]

OK, read it now but I would still reserve judgement without the "ex colony" being looked at by someone from the DSV, there is a distinct lack of dead bees in or around the hive apparently, even over recent weeks.

Luminos, I think you bought or were given this nuc of bees this year. If that is the case it is again most unlikely that they could be over run with varroa in their first season UNLESS they were already an old colony. If a swarm, the same would apply in the first year, almost zero chance of being over run with varroa.

BTW. I would happily give you some bees in the spring but you are on a different hive type to me.

And - From the other post, Black bees or Abeille Noir is indeed our native bee, I love them, hardy, reasonable yield, can be a bit defensive, so maybe not the best bee if you like playing with them.

http://www.rucherdutilleul.be/abeilles/reconnaitre

Chris

Au contraire. I was finding between 50 and 100 dead bees outside the hive for several weeks and was doing my best with icing sugar and Varroa Gard - because there still brood and eggs - until I could do the OA.

Very kind of you to offer the bees, Chris - appreciate it. Different hive type no problem.
When can you bring them?

 

[OXFORDBEE]

quick overload is possible if the colony rob a hive which is weakened by varroa and almost dying. Mites crawl onto robbers.

This is a good point, the varroa laden bees join the robbing bees as the colony collapses, and a near empty hive results.....

 

[Luminos]

that is wise. You need to invest only under million euros to that business.

Keep your man/boy friend in steady work place!

.

I agree. He's just going to have to work more weekends, or get an additional part-time job

 

[Luminos]

I've just thought of another question (sorry...)

What do do with the queen?
She's in a plastic bag in the fridge at the moment, right at the back where I don't have to keep looking at her

Something about swarm attracter?

 

[Chris Luck]

quick overload is possible if the colony rob a hive which is weakened by varroa and almost dying. Mites crawl onto robbers.

It may be a good point OXFORDBEE and it may be possible but I've never heard of any evidence that it happens here in France. The argument here would be that the mites attach themselves onto the foragers and then move of them into the strong hive in large numbers?

Probability is against that.

Very kind of you to offer the bees, Chris - appreciate it. Different hive type no problem.
When can you bring them?

Ahhh, Luminos, you really are becoming a true Brit in France, still if you want some in spring get in touch BUT you really will have to bring your own hive and collect them yourself, I can do you Dadant or Warré.

Chris

 

[Luminos]

It may be a good point OXFORDBEE and it may be possible but I've never heard of any evidence that it happens here in France. The argument here would be that the mites attach themselves onto the foragers and then move of them into the strong hive in large numbers?

Probability is against that.



Ahhh, Luminos, you really are becoming a true Brit in France, still if you want some in spring get in touch BUT you really will have to bring your own hive and collect them yourself, I can do you Dadant or Warré.

Chris

I doubt I'll ever become a true Brit.
I'll bring a Dadant, no problem. Promise I'll wash my bee suit first.

 

[OXFORDBEE]

It may be a good point OXFORDBEE and it may be possible but I've never heard of any evidence that it happens here in France. The argument here would be that the mites attach themselves onto the foragers and then move of them into the strong hive in large numbers?
Probability is against that.

I've heard reports from another reliable source about beekeepers who loose hives but end up with a really strong stock at the tail end of the season. Guess which hive is the next to collapse...!!

This Coloss report might be of interest:

Even in at the current preliminary state the models yielded interesting insights. As major trends, they stressed the crucial role of the substantial mite transfer by robbing and drifting between colonies during colony breakdown for bee population decline, thus emphasizing the role of colony spacing. They also showed that reduction of colony infestation during swarming could counteract population decline. In particular, less obvious factors as colony longevity emerged as possibly essential factors. As a main result the models indicated possible conditions where complete bee population eradication may not a likely long-term outcome of Varroa parasitation, leading to stable parasite – host equilibria. To understand more precisely these conditions may help to reflect the impact of current beekeeping practices on mite infestation, andmay help to devise colony management methods which exploit these insights to reduce the impact of varroosis on beekeeping.


From Vitae:

Transfer of varroa between colonies of bees

Attached to flying bees: Varroa mites attach themselves to the abdomen or thorax of adult bees. Spines on their legs also entwine with hairs on the body surface of the bee. Varroa mites can achieve wide geographic distribution by securing themselves underneath or between the sclerites of the bee and being carried in flight.

Carried by a robber bee: A robber bee that has been infested with varroa mites can transfer them to previously uninfested hives during robbing. A robbing bee may also become the unsuspecting host when stealing stores from an infested hive.

Drifting Bees: Varroa mites can also be transmitted during swarming or by drifting bees. Drones, in particular, can carry mites from one hive to another, sometimes over large distances.

The spread of the varroa mite can be accelerated by:
•migratory beekeeping
•transfer of bees between colonies
•where a colony social structure has already been weakened by varroa, hives are more vulnerable to robber bees, which pick up and then disperse the mites to their own and other colonies.

 

[Finman]

It may be a good point OXFORDBEE and it may be possible but I've never heard of any evidence that it happens here in France. The argument here would be that the mites attach themselves onto the foragers and then move of them into the strong hive in large numbers?

Probability is against that.


Chris

i have met once in my hives. A good 6 box hive was in good condition in August. A month later the whole box of brood produced only wingless bees. The big hive collapsed to 2 frames in one month.
3 other hives were normal.

I have read that finally object hive join to robbers. I do not know if this is those evergreen stories or true.
At least none of mine robbed hives have left their own hive. Robbers carry honey away and the robbed will starve.

.

 

[Luminos]

Went to the pharmacy today to ask for Acetic Acid crystals.

Pharmacist was very helpful, said he could order it in - asked what I wanted it for, and how much I needed. I explained about wanting to disinfect brood frames, and said I was hoping he could help me with the quantity.
He looked up Acetic Acid on his computer and said it was very expensive.
He said, could use vinegar instead? I said, it isn't strong enough.

So, I asked if he had washing soda crystals (I couldn't find them in the supermarket).
He said he couldn't possibly sell them to me either, as it was very corrosive and might get into the honey (what honey??) or harm the bees.
He said he was not an apiculturist, but his friend was, and it would be better for me to cut out the comb and destroy it, and disinfect the frames.

So I left empty handed.
Afterwards, I thought perhaps he thought I meant Caustic Soda crystals - but I did specify "crystaux de soude". Caustic soda is "soude caustique".

Any other suggestions - or, since it's only 5 frames, do you think he is right and I should destroy the combs? (Which was my initial plan).
Thanks for any views...

 

[Into the lions den]

Went to the pharmacy today to ask for Acetic Acid crystals...

Crystals?

Concentrated acetic acid (maybe still called glacial acetic acid, not sure) is a liquid, ready to use for fumigating combs. A chemist is not the place to get it, better from an agro chemical stockist (your local farming spray compnay perhaps?) or general chemical dealer. Usually supplied in a plastic container. They might want you to buy 20litres, but in storage it keeps indefinitely and could last a small beekeeper many years. Not expensive. Going to a chemist for scientific grade purity of chemicals brings really high price tags with it.

Just noticed the 5 frames bit..............would politely suggest it might not even be worth the bother buying in chemicals.

Suggest................
1. Just reuse the combs, as it seems to be a simple varroa death and the new bees will tidy it up in no time. They have valuable pollen and stores in them in the picture.

2. If not at peace with the above, then simply cut out the old comb, hand scrape the frames, and rewax.

3. If not at peace with that, then flame treat the frames to sterilise.

4. If not at peace with that, then cut out the comb, and immerse the frames in a hot solution of either washing soda or caustic soda............the latter is very nasty at the 5% concentration recommended.

5. If not at peace with that, then burn the lot and buy new.

Remember, items 3 to 5 make the assumption that there is a risk of deep malaise being present. If so then the whole hive needs dealing with to ensure sterility, not just the combs/frames. Ditto all the gear you have used in handling aforesaid hive.

I see nothing in the pictures that leads me away from option 1.

There is an annoying little drone patch attachment at the foot of one of the combs.........trim it off. Not because it is drone, rather because it has an inconvenient placement and will lead the bees to attach it acrooss the gap between the frames.