Bee breed specific breeders

[MartinL]

My Bucky is from Exmoor, which is pretty damn local, . . !

But not Dartmoor?

Nobody has mentioned Cordovans yet?

 

[colinc]

Bit of semantics going on here. Buckfast is a breed like dog breeds, where Buckfast is a complete Heinz mongrel that will breed true to conformation like a pedigree dog does but it isn't a mongrel. If it breeds true for long enough it becomes arguable that it is a breed but all dogs are the same species as are all strains of AM. BA could get them to breed true via his isolated apiaries but it is not a subspecies which is your Carnica/carniolan/AMM/lingustica etc


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[beebopper]

What else are they going to call it? It's only a marketing term anyway. There is no such thing as a pure "Buckfast" because it is a synthetic strain made from many different races. It's like saying "tartan paint". There is no such thing.

Buckfast/local cross or Buckfast/open mated queens would be fair description.

 

[beebopper]

The breeder queen is Buckfast inseminated with Buckfast sperm, so her duaghter queens can only be Buckfast. So the breeder is selling you a "pure" Buckfast queen...The term they uses is open mated.
Like any purchase of livestock there is considerable variation between breeders as to the quality of their queens, which unfortunately (or fortunately) can only be found out after purchase.

Yes I see what you are saying. But there is a difference between a queen that is raised from a mating in an isolated mating with selected colonies and open mated queen.
For people who are new to the hobby would be more informed about what they are getting.

 

[MartinL]

Bit of semantics going on here. Buckfast is a breed like dog breeds, , , , ,

Not exactly a breed. More an F1 hybrid.

Look at your "Buckfast" Q as a packet of seeds.
You pop the seeds in the ground, your Queen in the hive.
Both produce pure (as it says on the label).

But plant the seeds from the flowers of the F1 Hybrid;

• Some may be close to the original.

• The majority closer to the parent of the Queen but certainly different.

• A substantial number will be another type altogether.

 

[Finman]

.
Buckfast is not a F1 hybrid. Nothing to do with that.

 

[bjosephd]

"Breeds are formed through genetic isolation and either natural adaptation to the environment or selective breeding, or a combination of the two. Despite the centrality of the idea of "breeds" to animal husbandry and agriculture, no single, scientifically accepted definition of the term exists. A breed is therefore not an objective or biologically verifiable classification but is instead a term of art amongst groups of breeders who share a consensus around what qualities make some members of a given species members of a nameable subset."

This would suggest that a ligusta, carnica, AND buckfast can be counted as a breed and therefore have F1 hybrids.

Like dogs from wolves they have been selected to create 'pure breeds' albeit constructed/selected breeds.

Now when it comes to 'knowing what you're getting' - I find the respectable breeders make it quite clear that a queen is open mated or an F1 - and the price clearly demonstrates that - since 'pure' breeder queens cost closer to £300 whereas their open mated daughters cost 1/10th of that.

My understanding is there are 'natural' breeds - ligustica, carnica, etc - and 'established' breeds - buckfast. But they are all breeds.

 

[Finman]

This would suggest that a ligusta, carnica, AND buckfast can be counted as a breed and therefore have F1 hybrids.


My understanding is there are 'natural' breeds - ligustica, carnica, etc - and 'established' breeds - buckfast. But they are all breeds.

In animal taxonomy they are called races. You need not invent it again.

Buckfast is not only human made "race". Russian bee is the same. It is genetically Caucasian, but it has very odd habits compared to original Caucasians.

Africa has lots of bee races. They are not breeds because no one has bred them.

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[colinc]

"Breeds are formed through genetic isolation and either natural adaptation to the environment or selective breeding, or a combination of the two. Despite the centrality of the idea of "breeds" to animal husbandry and agriculture, no single, scientifically accepted definition of the term exists. A breed is therefore not an objective or biologically verifiable classification but is instead a term of art amongst groups of breeders who share a consensus around what qualities make some members of a given species members of a nameable subset."

This would suggest that a ligusta, carnica, AND buckfast can be counted as a breed and therefore have F1 hybrids.

Like dogs from wolves they have been selected to create 'pure breeds' albeit constructed/selected breeds.

Now when it comes to 'knowing what you're getting' - I find the respectable breeders make it quite clear that a queen is open mated or an F1 - and the price clearly demonstrates that - since 'pure' breeder queens cost closer to £300 whereas their open mated daughters cost 1/10th of that.

My understanding is there are 'natural' breeds - ligustica, carnica, etc - and 'established' breeds - buckfast. But they are all breeds.

This is why I said buckfast breed and the rest is semantics.

Apis is the Genus,
melifera is the species,
lingusitica, melifera, carnica, carniolan etc are all subspecies and that is the taxonomic definition.

This doesn't compare to dogs as breeds are not subspecies they are Line bred mongrels to fix traits and become a breed and Buckfast is the same.


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[B+.]

This is why I said buckfast breed and the rest is semantics
.

For the taxonomy to be correct, Buckfasts would have to be a subset of a race e.g. A.m.c.buckfast or A.m.l.buckfast, etc, but, the argument being presented is that Buckfast is on the same level as carnica, ligustica, etc which, clearly is wrong.
There is no morphological or genetic test that I am aware of that, given a sample of bees, would identify it as Buckfast. How could it? Buckfasts are a combination many times removed (not even an F1 cross).

 

[bjosephd]

This is melting my brain a little. I'm still keen to experience a great variety of bees in my apiary though. Whatever flavour they are.

 

[Finman]

.
Breeding plants does not any more follow old crossing rules.
Like Polka Raspberry is combination genes, which have picked from other rosa species.And the breed has been patented.

When I studied genetics 50 years ago, living genes to species to another species was only an idea. No on mentioned that new breeds will be patented..

F1 breed has special meaning in breeding and it is not what ever collision of mongrels on sky.
.

 

[beebopper]

Sorry I did not intend for this thread to get side tracked into a buckfast thread - my point is true for any open mated queen be it carnolian or whatever.

Very interesting though.

 

[Finman]

This is melting my brain a little. I'm still keen to experience a great variety of bees in my apiary though. Whatever flavour they are.

You just make those experiences in your yard. And you have a variety of genes in your village just waiting that they can mix your soup more.

Actually I have tried that same, but it exploded in my palms very soon. Better to say, exploded onto canopies of surrounding trees.
.

 

[colinc]

For the taxonomy to be correct, Buckfasts would have to be a subset of a race e.g. A.m.c.buckfast or A.m.l.buckfast, etc, but, the argument being presented is that Buckfast is on the same level as carnica, ligustica, etc which, clearly is wrong.
There is no morphological or genetic test that I am aware of that, given a sample of bees, would identify it as Buckfast. How could it? Buckfasts are a combination many times removed (not even an F1 cross).

I agree.

The comparable would be the true mongrel street dog in the developing world where they start to look a bit like wild dogs. So many crosses you cannot tell parentage.

I call them Heinz 57s


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[bjosephd]

...true mongrel street dog in the developing world where they start to look a bit like wild dogs.

I call them Heinz 57s


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I'd call them the 'Wolf Bee'.

As it's important that it sounds cool

 

[colinc]

I'd call them the 'Wolf Bee'.

As it's important that it sounds cool

May need a rethink on the marketing, Wolf bees may be a little intimidating for most.


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[Stiffy]

For the taxonomy to be correct, Buckfasts would have to be a subset of a race e.g. A.m.c.buckfast or A.m.l.buckfast, etc, but, the argument being presented is that Buckfast is on the same level as carnica, ligustica, etc which, clearly is wrong.
There is no morphological or genetic test that I am aware of that, given a sample of bees, would identify it as Buckfast. How could it? Buckfasts are a combination many times removed (not even an F1 cross).

That's absolutely correct, its can be a gamble and a possible nightmare scenario for the unwary.
I choose my Buckfast queens from breeders who follow the methods Brother Adam used and can provide pedigrees to show, not had too many problems doing so.
My black bees came from a recognised breeder but without any sort of documentation, luckily they seem okay
S

 

[B+.]

I choose my Buckfast queens from breeders who follow the methods Brother Adam used and can provide pedigrees to show, not had too many problems doing so.
My black bees came from a recognised breeder but without any sort of documentation, luckily they seem okay
S

When I used Buckfast bees from Br Adam/Peter Donnovan, I never got a pedigree, so, I don't think that is necessarily a problem (unless you intend to breed from them).
Things have moved on a lot from Br Adams day though.
In terms of credibility, I would say: "recognised by who?" If there is a governing body, the group should confirm the breeder as a member, and, the breeder should follow the guidelines of the group. If either of these doesn't apply, they are probably not kosher.

 

[bjosephd]

So has anyone experienced a half decent ligusta purchase? In the uk it seems all I can find are from Paynes (iwantbees) and becky's bees.