Bailey comb change rationale

[Davidrf]

This is a hypothetical question because I have decided to experiment with alternative configurations just out of interest. If adding boxes to a Warre hive they are put in at the bottom of the stack on the grounds, as I understand it, that "bees prefer to build downwards". Why then, when performing a Bailey comb change does the new brood box go on top of the old one, thus persuading the bees to "expand new brood comb upwards"?

I am embarked on a switch from worn out old Smith brood boxes with small combs to Poly 14x12 hives (proving quite complicated to incorporate feeders as well to facilitate comb building on new foundation!) and fell to wondering if the new brood box would be taken up and comb built more quickly if the foragers had to return through the new comb immediately adjacent to the entrance, rather than return to the old brood box on the level it always was and eventually find the new foundation above their heads.

I have successfully brought three colonies through this latest harsh winter despite being 600 feet up on the side of a Welsh mountain so I decided to go for the change at the first sign of good weather. The bees have been dragging pollen in by the bucket full for the past few days with new boxes and foundation in place on all hives, albeit in alternative positions, so that I can evaluate if there is any difference in rate of new comb building.

Can anyone provide a rationale for the recommended position of the new brood box in a standard Bailey Comb change? I suspect it has something to do with the final removal of the old comb and making sure where the queen is, but sitting here in isolation I can't quite grasp the theoretical reasoning behind the whole thing. Any experienced beeks out there got a view on this?

 

[oliver90owner]

If done at an appropriate time (when putting a box over the old brood), the advantage is that the bottom box will be devoid of both brood and stores after three weeks with the excluder in position.

 

[richardbees]

David, I'm no expert but would strongly suggest you wait a few more weeks until we have settled warm weather and a good nectar flow before doing this.

 

[MuswellMetro]

and fell to wondering if the new brood box would be taken up and comb built more quickly if the foragers had to return through the new comb immediately adjacent to the entrance, rather than return to the old brood box on the level it always was and eventually find the new foundation above their heads.

a bailley change as done at Rothamsted in the 70 when i worked there as a Student had the lower entrance blocked and a new entrance above the QE (under the new box), this method is in Yates and also on the NBU web site, it allows the bees to access the new brood without the forage bees walking over the old comb and also makes them less inclined to store pollen in the lower box

 

[susbees]

I have successfully brought three colonies through this latest harsh winter despite being 600 feet up on the side of a Welsh mountain so I decided to go for the change at the first sign of good weather.

Waves from 650ft up on the side of a different Welsh hill . Just put a cut-out yesterday onto half comb, half foundation...bees chaining like mad. Time will tell how fast they draw it...

 

[domino]

Quick question as I've never done this before and am about to. When I place a QE between the old and new box what can I use to create an entrance between the boxes?

 

[Finman]

Bailey Comb Change, - Renewing all combs at the same time

The whole idea is stupid. Absolutely.

I change combs when light does not come though any more.

I change about 1,5 boxes combs every year. My hives have 3 brood boxes and 4-6 medium supers.

I pull combs out from production frame by frame.

-

 

[Madge]

... I change combs when light does not come though any more. ...

I'm not sure I understand, Finman. Do you mean you only change combs when there are so many bees in the hive that you can't see through between the frames?

If so, doesn't that mean that by then all the frames are occupied with brood - so how can you exchange old combs for new ones?

Kitta

 

[Arfermo]

Quick question as I've never done this before and am about to. When I place a QE between the old and new box what can I use to create an entrance between the boxes?

You will need to make a shallow eke with an entrance hole to go asbove the top QE. Even so I would avoid a Baillie change as it takes ages to complete (personal experience). A shook swarm achieves the same objective but much more quickly. All this assumes a full comb change is essential - which is not usually the case unless you suspect disease potential buildup within the old comb. As always there are multiple opinions about comb changing just to cloud your thoughts.

 

[Finman]

If so, doesn't that mean that by then all the frames are occupied with brood - so how can you exchange old combs for new ones?

Kitta

If I notice old combs in brood box, I lift the up to honey box. Bees come out from comb and it will be filled with honey. Then extract the comb and take off from production.

If the comb has much pollen and it is old, I let the queen lay it full of larvae. Then I lift it to honey box and bees will eate all pollen.

Once I made a big mistake. I moved allways young combs into the centre and dark on into edges. One day my all brood combs were out of date. 20 hives and only out of date combs.

Since that I move darker combs into brood centre and when they get old, I move them to the supert part.

Lots of dark combs I pick off after winter.

.

 

[Suzi Q]

Empty comb held up to the light?

 

[domino]

You will need to make a shallow eke with an entrance hole to go asbove the top QE. Even so I would avoid a Baillie change as it takes ages to complete (personal experience). A shook swarm achieves the same objective but much more quickly. All this assumes a full comb change is essential - which is not usually the case unless you suspect disease potential buildup within the old comb. As always there are multiple opinions about comb changing just to cloud your thoughts.

I just want to move them onto 12X14s from nationals and this seems the less stressful method. Also I'm a little scared of doing a shook swarm.

 

[Suzi Q]

Since that I move darker combs into brood centre and when they get old, I move them to the supert part.

Lots of dark combs I pick off after winter.

.

Are your supers then the same size as the brood box?

 

[Finman]

Are your supers then the same size as the brood box?

I use langstroths and mediums. But if needed, I use Langstroths as super too.
I do not use excluders.


douple brood is very handy to use. You may take some frames off and then give foundations to be drawn.

My queens may lay as much as they can. When I use 3 brood, queen does not lay in honey boxes. When brood box has honey frames, I lift them up and put foundatiosn to be drawn .

 

[Finman]

I just want to move them onto 12X14s from nationals and this seems the less stressful method. Also I'm a little scared of doing a shook swarm.

This time of year it is better that bees are in peace and they concentare to build up their colonies. NO disturbance is good now.

When hive is strong, like 3 boxes or over. it stands better tricks what beek gets in his mind.

Let's say, AS is very good moment to renew combs. AS draw almost one box new foundations and when you join hive parts, put the old combs over the excluder, - if combs are too old.

To use brood combs in super makes nursing very flexiple. It needs only one box and things flow better.

.

.

 

[Davidrf]

David, I'm no expert but would strongly suggest you wait a few more weeks until we have settled warm weather and a good nectar flow before doing this.

Thanks guys for the responses given, even if the thread has started to drift a little.... Richard. I know there will never be a consensus among beeks (all part of the fun) which is why I take my own decisions and live with the results. Contrary to your sound advice, I was advised a month ago that if I was intending to make a Bailey change "get on with it now". The rationale being that if one waited until a full nectar flow the brood nest would have expanded rapidly and they might exhaust energy on coping with that, then have to repeat the exercise to fill out new foundation. Obviously nobody could have foreseen the really cold interlude that ensued, but it does mean one has to make one's own mind up in the face of conflicting advice. I'm sure nobody is actually wrong and it is possible to get away with dramatic mistakes thanks to the bees enduring ingenuity in the face of my stupidity.

 

[itma]

If you do it when there isn't a nectar flow, then you must feed.

 

[Madge]

If I notice old combs in brood box, I lift the up to honey box. Bees come out from comb and it will be filled with honey. ...

Thanks for the reply, Finman. I now also understand what you meant with 'no light coming through', being old, dark combs.

Kitta

 

[Madge]

... If adding boxes to a Warre hive they are put in at the bottom of the stack on the grounds, as I understand it, that "bees prefer to build downwards". Why then, when performing a Bailey comb change does the new brood box go on top of the old one, thus persuading the bees to "expand new brood comb upwards"? ...

Thanks guys for the responses given, even if the thread has started to drift a little....

Yes, I can't see that anybody actually answered your question. I do not have any Warré hives, but I have heard Warré owners say that they sometimes have problems persuading the bees to go down.

I wonder - if there's empty space above the queen's head (which is not the case in a Warré), perhaps her instinct it to go up and up looking for empty cells until she can go no further. That will still be according to their natural behaviour where all the cells are occupied with honey, pollen or brood from the top down.

Kitta

 

[itma]

... Contrary to your sound advice, I was advised a month ago that if I was intending to make a Bailey change "get on with it now". ... Obviously nobody could have foreseen the really cold interlude that ensued, but it does mean one has to make one's own mind up in the face of conflicting advice. I'm sure nobody is actually wrong and it is possible to get away with dramatic mistakes thanks to the bees enduring ingenuity in the face of my stupidity.

The BBKA advice as to when is

This system is ideal for replacing all the combs at once and is best performed in early spring often, with clement weather, March is suitable, but remember to keep feeding so the bees can build comb.

http://tinyurl.com/cwepaqo



I don't think you should have problems starting now, but keep feeding!