Bailey change - ok to do now?

[Beezy]

Hi,

I want to change my bees from standard national to 14x12 and wanted to ask if it would be ok to do this in the next couple of days? May is the usual time as it's warmer, but I'm in London (20 deg today) and we're expected to have a hot spell for the next 2 weeks at least.

I checked my bees 2 weeks ago and they were covering 8 frames with lots of stores in the bb (none in the super at the time but I suspect there's plenty in the super now too, as they've been bringing in lots of pollen. So they're doing pretty well at the mo...just want to make sure I'm not jumping the gun too soon as I don't want to set them back.

Thanks

 

[Midland Beek]

I thought 'hot' meant about 30 deg and higher. But given the impending warm spell it sounds like a good time to do the change.

 

[eddiespangle]

I've just started doing a Bailey change on a hive. National to Commercial.

 

[Poly Hive]

Covering 8 frames at inspection time is (sorry to say) pretty meaningless.

If you looked at 2am would it be as "strong"?

Frames of brood is the normal way to assess by.

PH

 

[Heather]

I did a Bailey today. It is warm enough and as long as lots of brood below and you give a syrup feed to help them produce the wax- go for it.

 

[Beezy]

Ok, thanks for the advice. They had a lot of brood when I last checked so will double check this w/e and then do the bailey if all looks good.

 

[psafloyd]

I thought 'hot' meant about 30 deg and higher. But given the impending warm spell it sounds like a good time to do the change.

Um, how often does it ever reach 30C in Cannock or wherever it is you are based, MB?

 

[psafloyd]

Covering 8 frames at inspection time is (sorry to say) pretty meaningless.

If you looked at 2am would it be as "strong"?

Frames of brood is the normal way to assess by.

PH

PH, what do YOU take to be strong? My first inspection of the year looked very promising with five frames of 50-75% capped brood and a lot of stores and pollen, with the couple of foundation starting to be drawn. Could I reasonably call that strong, as I have in my inspection notes?

 

[oliver90owner]

Could I reasonably call that strong

'Not particularly', would be my reply, if you had thrown it open to others. Certainly not 'weak', I would guess.

Lets work backwards.

Assuming 12 frames (and it may be eleven).

2 frames not drawn anywhere near completely. Any others not started at all?

Be generous, that would leave ten frames available (could be nine or less).

That leaves the stores of honey and pollen - you say lots, so let's be a bit tight and say two frames (could be three).

So we now have eight frames available for brood (could be only six or less).

Assuming your 75% coverage, means there is only six frames of brood (could be just 4 1/2).

Is this a fair assessment?

I would think about right 'cos working forwards, you only have 2 1/2 to 3 3/4 frames of capped brood.

So about half that much open brood and a quarter of that amount for eggs, so about 6 frames that way too.

So only 3/4 of the way to being 'strong' enough to super.

That might, of course, be a different assessment were we to know when that first inspection was carried out. If it was three weeks ago, the bees should certainly have progressed considerably since then - provided there is room for her to lay at an accelerated rate.

Several ways to work it out - ratios of times for each stage, but they are all rough and ready as the queen will be accelerating her rate of lay at this time of the season - but only if there is adequate space, the bees can get out for water (if not nectar)........

Estimates tend to be optimistic, I find, as a generality.

Your description could mean the nest is constricted. It may not, but remember she will easily be able to lay up any space vacated by bees emerging, as the lay-rate should, by now, have increased considerably c/f three weeks ago.

It depends on the strain of bee as well - so one gets used to one's bees, and with several colonies one can easily see a range (and know from experience the minimum size for a colony to build up fairly promptly) as well as recognising if intervention is needed to help them accelerate. With one colony and little experience there is not a lot to work with and the strength of a colony becomes so very much more subjective.

Banging on a second brood box (100% increase) is considerably more than adding a shallow to a deep; and increasing the hive volume by a factor of 2.7 needs even more careful consideration. Holding off for a short time is so much easier than trying to back-pedal later, when deep in the mire.

RAB

 

[Vergilius]

Could I reasonably call that strong

'Not particularly', would be my reply, if you had thrown it open to others. Certainly not 'weak', I would guess.

Lets work backwards.

Assuming 12 frames (and it may be eleven).

2 frames not drawn anywhere near completely. Any others not started at all?

Be generous, that would leave ten frames available (could be nine or less).

That leaves the stores of honey and pollen - you say lots, so let's be a bit tight and say two frames (could be three).

So we now have eight frames available for brood (could be only six or less).

Assuming your 75% coverage, means there is only six frames of brood (could be just 4 1/2).

Is this a fair assessment?

I would think about right 'cos working forwards, you only have 2 1/2 to 3 3/4 frames of capped brood.

So about half that much open brood and a quarter of that amount for eggs, so about 6 frames that way too.

So only 3/4 of the way to being 'strong' enough to super.

That might, of course, be a different assessment were we to know when that first inspection was carried out. If it was three weeks ago, the bees should certainly have progressed considerably since then - provided there is room for her to lay at an accelerated rate.

Several ways to work it out - ratios of times for each stage, but they are all rough and ready as the queen will be accelerating her rate of lay at this time of the season - but only if there is adequate space, the bees can get out for water (if not nectar)........

Estimates tend to be optimistic, I find, as a generality.

Your description could mean the nest is constricted. It may not, but remember she will easily be able to lay up any space vacated by bees emerging, as the lay-rate should, by now, have increased considerably c/f three weeks ago.

It depends on the strain of bee as well - so one gets used to one's bees, and with several colonies one can easily see a range (and know from experience the minimum size for a colony to build up fairly promptly) as well as recognising if intervention is needed to help them accelerate. With one colony and little experience there is not a lot to work with and the strength of a colony becomes so very much more subjective.

Banging on a second brood box (100% increase) is considerably more than adding a shallow to a deep; and increasing the hive volume by a factor of 2.7 needs even more careful consideration. Holding off for a short time is so much easier than trying to back-pedal later, when deep in the mire.

RAB

LOL. How can your brain function like this @ 1AM!!!


Ben P

 

[Vergilius]

Hi,

I want to change my bees from standard national to 14x12 and wanted to ask if it would be ok to do this in the next couple of days? May is the usual time as it's warmer, but I'm in London (20 deg today) and we're expected to have a hot spell for the next 2 weeks at least.

I checked my bees 2 weeks ago and they were covering 8 frames with lots of stores in the bb (none in the super at the time but I suspect there's plenty in the super now too, as they've been bringing in lots of pollen. So they're doing pretty well at the mo...just want to make sure I'm not jumping the gun too soon as I don't want to set them back.

Thanks

Are you doing it onto foundation or drawn comb?

Latter would probs be better at this time of year, although you probably don't have any.

Ben P

 

[psafloyd]

Could I reasonably call that strong

'Not particularly', would be my reply, if you had thrown it open to others. Certainly not 'weak', I would guess.

Lets work backwards.

Assuming 12 frames (and it may be eleven).

2 frames not drawn anywhere near completely. Any others not started at all?

Be generous, that would leave ten frames available (could be nine or less).

That leaves the stores of honey and pollen - you say lots, so let's be a bit tight and say two frames (could be three).

So we now have eight frames available for brood (could be only six or less).

Assuming your 75% coverage, means there is only six frames of brood (could be just 4 1/2).

Is this a fair assessment?

I would think about right 'cos working forwards, you only have 2 1/2 to 3 3/4 frames of capped brood.

So about half that much open brood and a quarter of that amount for eggs, so about 6 frames that way too.

So only 3/4 of the way to being 'strong' enough to super.

That might, of course, be a different assessment were we to know when that first inspection was carried out. If it was three weeks ago, the bees should certainly have progressed considerably since then - provided there is room for her to lay at an accelerated rate.

Several ways to work it out - ratios of times for each stage, but they are all rough and ready as the queen will be accelerating her rate of lay at this time of the season - but only if there is adequate space, the bees can get out for water (if not nectar)........

Estimates tend to be optimistic, I find, as a generality.

Your description could mean the nest is constricted. It may not, but remember she will easily be able to lay up any space vacated by bees emerging, as the lay-rate should, by now, have increased considerably c/f three weeks ago.

It depends on the strain of bee as well - so one gets used to one's bees, and with several colonies one can easily see a range (and know from experience the minimum size for a colony to build up fairly promptly) as well as recognising if intervention is needed to help them accelerate. With one colony and little experience there is not a lot to work with and the strength of a colony becomes so very much more subjective.

Banging on a second brood box (100% increase) is considerably more than adding a shallow to a deep; and increasing the hive volume by a factor of 2.7 needs even more careful consideration. Holding off for a short time is so much easier than trying to back-pedal later, when deep in the mire.

RAB

Thanks, Rab, most enlightening. I perhaps should have erred on the side of 'not weak' rather than strong or strengthening, perhaps. After all, as a financial hack, I tend not to err on the side of caution with claims.

However, that means my own assessment wasn't wildly out of whack but your analysis is fair and useful for me to look at assessing them in the future.

Frames six to 11 are in full production, though outside frames have the fewest brood in them and more stores.

I would think they may be constricted if the frames being drawn are not pressed into service, but they were busy drawing them on Saturday and I will check them again no later than Saturday.

Thanks again for the analysis, as it provides a good deal of perspective.