Artificial swarm options now

[MandF]

As per my other thread, my one honey crop hive started charging queen cells last weekend, so if by adding some more space it hasn't dissuaded them from wanting to swarm, I will need to do an AS on it.

With the main flow imminent, my concerns are obviously having the "new" hive with supers busy drawing foundation and raising brood over the next few weeks and not gathering and storing nectar.

Thinking about it, would it be a good idea to put a few frames of emerging brood into the new "swarm" hive, to give it a bit more of a kick start, and therefore release the foragers to forage, instead of just the one with the queen on?

I guess that would almost make it a split.

In fact, if I were going to do that, couldnt I just move out of the main hive 6 frames of brood including 1 queen cell, then break down any qcs in the main hive? I guess the question is, how much brood needs to be moved out of the main hive before the bees think they have swarmed, or need to swarm?

Thoughts/opinions/advice welcome! I am planning to go through the hive on saturday, and will AS/split then if necessary.

Thanks

Mark

 

[VEG]

The reason for doing an AS is to satisfy the bees swarming instinct, so they need to draw wax with limited brood, if you put a few frames of brood in they may well still have the urge to swarm.

 

[drstitson]

what did you do with the "charged" queen cells last weekend???????

1. if left then hive has swarmed.
2. if broken down then hive may be about to swarm (or may even have managed to swarm).

do a proper AS - brood and nurse bees with one QC, queen and flyers in new hive.

 

[Mike a]

do a proper AS - brood and nurse bees with one QC, queen and flyers in new hive.

My preferred method is to move the queen and several frames of bees, one frame of pollen/honey stores to a new location leaving the old hive in the same place to raise the new queen. Then a week or so later if the balance of the two colonies sizes needs adjusting then move a frame of sealed brood into the original queens hive as a fair amount of the foraging bees would of relocated back to the parent hive shortly after the split took place.

 

[oliver90owner]

...and not gathering and storing nectar.

I don't understand your logic if, indeed, there is any.

ALL the flying bees will be with the old queen and supers shortly after the A/S and again in a week's time when the parent colony is moved.

Foragers collect nectar, bees, store it and reduce/convert it to honey. That is what we want them to do, so what is this idea of not wanting them to do it? Seems to me a crazy idea, or not through very carefully, if at all.

 

[MandF]

...and not gathering and storing nectar.

I don't understand your logic if, indeed, there is any.

ALL the flying bees will be with the old queen and supers shortly after the A/S and again in a week's time when the parent colony is moved.

Foragers collect nectar, bees, store it and reduce/convert it to honey. That is what we want them to do, so what is this idea of not wanting them to do it? Seems to me a crazy idea, or not through very carefully, if at all.

Yes Rab, so if the swarm has all the flying bees, aka foragers, then a lot of those foragers will be spending time in the new hive drawing comb and nursing brood until they have a new generation of brood.

If I put some more brood & nurse bees in with the "swarm" then that will both release some more of the foragers to forage, and also make for a speedier build up.

That is the logic. In a swarm, some of the foragers revert to being house bees. If I give the swarm more nurse bees, fewer of the foragers need to revert to become house bees and are available to forage during the main flow.

 

[MandF]

what did you do with the "charged" queen cells last weekend???????

1. if left then hive has swarmed.
2. if broken down then hive may be about to swarm (or may even have managed to swarm).

do a proper AS - brood and nurse bees with one QC, queen and flyers in new hive.

I inspected on Weds, thats when I found the charged QCs, still open, and the larvae were about 5mm long, so I estimated the queen laid into the QCs at the weekend.

I broke down the 3 charged but unsealed qcs I saw, and Im pretty sure I saw them all, but figured even if I missed one, it wouldnt yet be sealed on saturday which is when I am doing the next inspection prepared to AS/split.

On weds I had the one national which was full of brood, 1 frame on the end had nectar, plus a super above QE which was probably 75% full (but nothing capped). When I found the QCs I immediately added another super, and alternated 3 empty super frames (drawn) in the super above the QE (so immediately above the QE was then NNNENENENN, n=nectar e=empty). The reason for doing this was to convince the bees they had space in the hive again - a form of 'checkerboarding' , see Checkerboarding

I used this technique last year on a hive which was full and started charging QCs, and it worked in changing their minds!

If it worked again this time, I will leave them, but I am preparing for it not working

 

[MandF]

The reason for doing an AS is to satisfy the bees swarming instinct, so they need to draw wax with limited brood, if you put a few frames of brood in they may well still have the urge to swarm.

Last year when my then 1 hive was in the same position - ie hive full and starting QCs, I did a walk-away split, because I wanted the second hive as insurance over winter. I used the split as a swarm technique, and it worked.

This was around early May.

Has anyone used a split as a swarm technique, and it not stopped the original hive swarming when it has half its brood removed and replaced with foundation?

I am 99% sure that the trigger for them wanting to swarm is the lack of space in the hive. My limited 'checkerboarding' may not give them enough space to change their mind, but I am pretty sure that removing at least half the brood (and giving them foundation to draw) will do so?

To be honest, I dont mind either way ('proper' AS or split) as I will need another hive and 11 frames of foundation - my main concern is maximising the honey crop, given the main flow is soon to be upon us.

If 1 frame of brood is ok to definitely supress the swarm urge, then is 2? 3? 4?

I am sure my logic of having as much brood in the main hive (with the queen) will mean the least disruption of the nectar collection in the "swarm"? If so, it boils down to how many frames of brood in the "swarm" I can get away with.

Which takes me back to the question, has anyone done a split as a swarm technique, and it not worked in preventing/supressing the original hive's swarm instinct?

 

[VEG]

try it if it doesnt work we can say told you so lol

If it works we can say lucky lol

 

[MandF]

Thanks Craig

I guess I could try a 6/5 split (5 with queen), and if they still look swarmy remove 1 or 2 more brood frames?!

The only reason I am asking for clarification re: split as swarm technique, is because I want to understand more. As I understand it now, a hive wont swarm if it doesn't think the parent hive will be able to survive - and it thinks it will if the brood area is full and has stores all around it. Therefore you can stop a hive wanting to swarm by creating space in and around the brood nest.

Last year was my first full season which started with an overwintered hive. It got swarmy early may, so I did a 50/50 split (because I wanted an increase), and that stopped the parent hive being swarmy. It then got swarmy late June (because the brood & half was full) so I added another super and checkerboarded the super above the brood. That stopped it being swarmy - I also did our first extraction around that time which also gave them lots more space to store nectar.

 

[oliver90owner]

then a lot of those foragers will be spending time in the new hive drawing comb and nursing brood until they have a new generation of brood.

Nooo! They will out collecting nextar and storing honey in great dollops with little brood to service! The queen's lay-rate will be reduced for a short while, but they have nearly all of the foragers,

Of course, not all flying bees are foragers. You seem to have ingored, not thought about, or forgotten - only you kow why you have failed to consider that. I suggest you actually go away and think through the different aspects of the matter. Your reasoning (what there is of it ) is seriously flawed.

 

[Finman]

The reason for doing an AS is to satisfy the bees swarming instinct, so they need to draw wax with limited brood, if you put a few frames of brood in they may well still have the urge to swarm.

Veg says all essential. Take or leave the swarm.

 

[Finman]

Yes Rab, so if the swarm has all the flying bees, aka foragers, then a lot of those foragers will be spending time in the new hive drawing comb and nursing brood until they have a new generation of brood.

If I put some more brood & nurse bees in with the "swarm" then that will both release some more of the foragers to forage, and also make for a speedier build up.

That is the logic. In a swarm, some of the foragers revert to being house bees. If I give the swarm more nurse bees, fewer of the foragers need to revert to become house bees and are available to forage during the main flow.

It is better that you discuss with bees about these difficulties in directing bees.

There are parts in the hive which must loose their interest to swarm;
- false swarm = old bees
- brood part = very young bees + emerging = after swarm

When they have lost they swarming fever, you join hive parts again and hive will be normal honey producer.

I
When hive has capped the queen cells, I do not know another method how to stop swarming.

A false swarm poduces honey as before when they have started to draw foundations. In swarming fever only part of gang works.

What ever they do, no one will ask from you, do you like it.

.

 

[MandF]

Thanks guys, so the flaw in my logic/gap in my understanding was that a lot of the original foragers from the hive would be diverted to house duties such as drawing foundation (to begin with) and feeding brood etc.

I will do an AS if they have started charging qcs again.

Finman, just to point out that I had no capped queen cell, just larvae in royal jelly.

 

[oliver90owner]

flaw in my logic/gap in my understanding was that a lot of the original foragers from the hive would be diverted

Err, no. Your flaw was that you had no apparent understanding of the make-up of the bees that actually went with/joined the A/S side, nor how the A/S population proceeds after that manipulation.

Apart from that you could have got it right.

 

[MandF]

flaw in my logic/gap in my understanding was that a lot of the original foragers from the hive would be diverted

Err, no. Your flaw was that you had no apparent understanding of the make-up of the bees that actually went with/joined the A/S side, nor how the A/S population proceeds after that manipulation.

Apart from that you could have got it right.

Rab, I know all the flying bees join the AS, as that is the point of the manipulations for an AS, which I am well aware of.

What I didnt consider was that not only foragers would be flying out of the hive during the day. In other words I equated flying bees with foragers, and forgot about house bees which will be taking cleaning flights etc.

If I knew it all I wouldnt be asking questions on here. And just to be clear, again, when I post about my experience/things I have done (like a split as swarm control) I am not doing so to say that is the definitive answer, or definitely works, I am doing so to prompt a discussion because my experience is very limited and I accept that you never stop learning.

 

[oliver90owner]

Come on! You were trying to reinvent the wheel and attempting to justify all your wrong assumptions.

There is so much written about the 'why's and wherefore's' of the A/S that it was fairly clear you had not absorbed much in the way of how the system has been refined (to make it as simple as possible without too much loss of crop and minimum risk of a new queen failing), or had not bothered to study it, or had forgotten the basics. As a rather opinionated 'arguer' on the forum, this makes your credibility rating dive even lower.

The system is there. Use it and don't keep trying to invent zany alternatives, You just don't have the experience. Walk before you try to run, or you will trip over yourself comes to mind.

 

[Chris58]

Perhaps not shooting the messenger when they're trying to learn and cope with what they see as a problem. Thought the forum was to help and inform, not put down and denigrate......

 

[oliver90owner]

Perhaps not shooting the messenger

You perhaps need to look back at some of the previous postings.

What comes around, goes around.

 

[MandF]

The system is there. Use it and don't keep trying to invent zany alternatives, You just don't have the experience. Walk before you try to run, or you will trip over yourself comes to mind.

I am finding it difficult to not get abusive, but you really need to get your facts straight man.

Reinvent the wheel? What??!? Are you suggesting that SPLITS are not a form of swarm control?

All I was trying to do was understand how an A/S would be as good or better than a 50/50 "walk away" split, IN TERMS OF HONEY CROP.

I *know* splits work for swarm control.

I *know* A/S works for swarm control.

It was the pros/cons of either method THIS TIME OF YEAR.

I am not arguing with yours (or anyone elses) logic, I am asking questions and discussing. I would rather know WHY doing an A/S is as good, or better, than a split, something which should be encouraged on a discussion forum.

I do, however, question yours, or anyone elses, statements of facts on other matters. That is not an insult, or a threat, it is healthy. There are very few facts when it comes to beekeeping, but lots of opinions. When people dish out opinion as fact then I question it.

That will not stop me asking questions, seeking opinions and accepting someones answer regardless of whether I have questioned or disagreed with them before.

You stand alone on this forum as taking anyone questioning something you say as a threat/insult, yet you are all too keen on dishing out patronising and insulting comments. I suggest you take a look again at the purpose of a 'forum', you might know something about beekeeping but you sure could learn something about manners and public fora.