an experiment

[Elaine]

It’s a thought gone too far to me you are perhaps losing contact with what draws us to this craft the bees.

I am all for people doing their thing and not following the crowd but this is ill thought out and one you could do next year.

Derek isn't proposing that any beekeepers take up this as a beehive, and takes great pains to tell people he is not the beekeeper, I 'dragged' him into it, as I wanted him to take an interest in the bees - to be a second pair of eyes, and to help me when I needed it. In wishing to save me money on a new hive, he started researching different materials he could use to make me one - and it's all gone downhill from there

All through the design and construction of this experiement- Derek has talked to me about it - and has had to make quite a few changes just to enable any type of 'beekeeping', but in the interests of using frames compatible with the rest of my hives, this is the outcome - inspections are not going to be necessarily quick and easy, but I am happy to spend the time and effort - as they will certanly be interesting!

 

[enrico]

Interesting... hadnt thought of that problem. I would have thought that woould have shown with putting fragments of comb in frames using the elastic band trick. Havent seen that happen but then I wasnt looking for it then.


Thinking some more about this: From the 6 fold symmetry its results not in the full 90 degrees difference but only 30 degrees

We shall see what happens...

rotating brood frame... thats a really strange idea... must confuse the hell out of both the varroa and the bees. Its not only oreintation it is also changing the heat loss/temperature.

90 degrees is three times 30degrees though! All I can say is that I used to use square cut comb sections. They fitted into square section box's and it took me a long time to realise why they would not touch some of the sections at all whilst others would be drawn and filled. Finally it clicked, if I put the section box's with the flat side of the hexagons up and down they would not draw it out, but if the points were up and down, i.e. at 90 degrees, they would use it!
I guess that if they have no option they will try and twist it to get it right, but who knows. As for the rotating comb, maybe they only draw it out while it is the right way up!!!dizzy bees!
E

 

[REDWOOD]

I don't know if you have seen this but looks like the kind of thing you like

http://openenergymonitor.org/emon/node/102

 

[Tom Bick]

Derek isn't proposing that any beekeepers take up this as a beehive, and takes great pains to tell people he is not the beekeeper, I 'dragged' him into it, as I wanted him to take an interest in the bees - to be a second pair of eyes, and to help me when I needed it. In wishing to save me money on a new hive, he started researching different materials he could use to make me one - and it's all gone downhill from there

All through the design and construction of this experiement- Derek has talked to me about it - and has had to make quite a few changes just to enable any type of 'beekeeping', but in the interests of using frames compatible with the rest of my hives, this is the outcome - inspections are not going to be necessarily quick and easy, but I am happy to spend the time and effort - as they will certanly be interesting!

So its you we have to blame is it Elaine

Derek on the whole does not bother me greatly about his hive design’s in fact in the past I have commented on his individual approach I actually like it when people do things their own way. I also recognise when someone has the bit between their teeth and perhaps is a bit obsessed with a particular subject as I may have been guilty of in the past.

But to be slightly obsessed with something you can become blinkered and perhaps not see the wood for the trees and in Derek’s case not able to see the wood in his tree. Sorry just could not resist.

I think his latest experiment would be more valid if he ran it at a time of year when he could run a swarm into his insulation tree and let them be a wild colony build comb as they see fit, regulate the hive and brood nest and move stores as they require. He could then take readings of something closer to a wild colony something he is always quoting and the results will have more meaning. An even better solution would be to a quire a section of tree, have it split and then rig it with sensors and run that as a wild colony.

For this experiment to work reasonably close to a wild colony the bees would need a few full brood cycles to adapt fully to their new orientation and configuration and I dont think that is going to happen.

I have no doubt the bees will cope with the sudden change in angle they have defence mechanisms to deal with such disasters after all trees to fall over and what was once a nice entrance may be a hole in the roof. But the hive will not operate as normal for some time and again require time to adjust.

I am no scientist or academic but right now to my practical eye at best this will show parts of the insulation tree will be warmer than other parts. I will love to be proven wrong by the way.

All good science should stand up to criticism and constructive criticism is required to test the science.

Derek gives as good as he gets on this forum and that’s fine with me and to my knowledge not resorted to swearing to get his point across and a sign of good forum etiquette.

Carry on Derek the world needs people like you but rethink this one and run it again next year with a true wild colony.

 

[REDWOOD]

http://www.treehugger.com/gadgets/diy-honey-bee-counter-for-your-homes-hive.html

 

[oliver90owner]

rotating brood frame

And I thought I mentioned this in my first post on this thread. Amazing how few read and actually understand the posts?

 

[VEG]

rotating brood frame

And I thought I mentioned this in my first post on this thread. Amazing how few read and actually understand the posts?

Perhaps they cant see your post if you are on their ignore list

 

[pargyle]

well ... I like the experiment ... it may have flaws if other posters are right but at least it will be a working test rig and will enable Derek to iron out any bugs and be in a good position for a MkII next season if it proves necessary to change things.

To sort the foundation problem, next year, and provide an even more 'tree like' hive it might be an idea to go foundationless ... the frames would need to be wired to support the comb and they would need to be modified with a more substantial bottom bar (side bar in Derek's orientation) to take the strain of the wires but that's the only problem that I can see.

Good luck derek, the world of beekeeping needs thinkers and innovators ... it's a pity that some people seem to pick holes in anything that does not 'conform'.

 

[enrico]

rotating brood frame

And I thought I mentioned this in my first post on this thread. Amazing how few read and actually understand the posts?

No one had commented on it and I thought it was important so I brought it up again!
E

 

[BeeJayBee]

The angle of the cells is the only thing that bothers me slightly bothers me, but I'm pretty sure that bees' evolution has enabled them to deal with mishaps.

The rest is interesting, and I'm looking forwards to learning how it works out.

9 if I put the section box's with the flat side of the hexagons up and down they would not draw it out, but if the points were up and down [...snip...] they would use it!

Housel positioning. Explained by Dee Lusby http://www.beesource.com/point-of-v...ning-how-i-view-its-importance-to-beekeeping/

 

[user 6228]

...

I think his latest experiment would be more valid if he ran it at a time of year when he could run a swarm into his insulation tree and let them be a wild colony ...

Tom you are correct and that was my original intention. But the best laid plans... So the fall back plan was to get them in before the end of August.
Luckily we do have copious heather and ivy and the very nature of them being insulated extends their active season. So hopefully I will get some good data this winter and spring.

 

[drstitson]

Bees are NOT fussed about comb orientation. I.e. they do not always build with the Housel Y upwards.

Naturwissenschaften. 2000 Jan;87(1):33-5.
Gravity-independent orientation of honeycomb cells.
Pratt SC.
Source
Section of Neurobiology and Behavior, Mudd Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853, USA. [email protected]
Abstract
Honey bees have long been assumed to build their comb with the cells in either of two preferred orientations with respect to gravity ("vertical" or "horizontal"). I show here that these typical cell orientations in fact derive from substrate orientation and a simple building rule, rather than the influence of gravity itself. When bees were induced to build comb on substrates at four different orientations with respect to gravity, they always made cells with one vertex pointing directly toward the substrate. This produced horizontal and vertical cells on vertical and horizontal substrates, respectively, but yielded intermediate orientations on oblique substrates. The apparent preference for vertical and horizontal cells may simply reflect substrate orientation in the rectilinear hives from which cell measurements have been taken.

 

[drstitson]

Bees are NOT fussed about comb orientation. I.e. they do not always build with the Housel Y upwards.

Naturwissenschaften. 2000 Jan;87(1):33-5.
Gravity-independent orientation of honeycomb cells.
Pratt SC.
Source
Section of Neurobiology and Behavior, Mudd Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853, USA. [email protected]
Abstract
Honey bees have long been assumed to build their comb with the cells in either of two preferred orientations with respect to gravity ("vertical" or "horizontal"). I show here that these typical cell orientations in fact derive from substrate orientation and a simple building rule, rather than the influence of gravity itself. When bees were induced to build comb on substrates at four different orientations with respect to gravity, they always made cells with one vertex pointing directly toward the substrate. This produced horizontal and vertical cells on vertical and horizontal substrates, respectively, but yielded intermediate orientations on oblique substrates. The apparent preference for vertical and horizontal cells may simply reflect substrate orientation in the rectilinear hives from which cell measurements have been taken.

 

[user 6228]

Bees are NOT fussed about comb orientation. I.e. they do not always build with the Housel Y upwards.
...

thats nice to know, And I suppose from the rotating hive literature i dont have to bother about varoa treatment

Did a unit test of the heat sensors on the hive and the mux in its weather proof box... the top box is a toasty 35C at the walls. Gave them a little fondant (100g) to finance any moving of the furniture.
Didnt do an inspection of them that we will do in a week to a fortnights time to see how they are settling in there

 

[enrico]

bees are not fussed about comb orientation. I.e. They do not always build with the housel y upwards.

Naturwissenschaften. 2000 jan;87(1):33-5.
Gravity-independent orientation of honeycomb cells.
Pratt sc.
Source
section of neurobiology and behavior, mudd hall, cornell university, ithaca, ny 14853, usa. [email protected]
abstract
honey bees have long been assumed to build their comb with the cells in either of two preferred orientations with respect to gravity ("vertical" or "horizontal"). I show here that these typical cell orientations in fact derive from substrate orientation and a simple building rule, rather than the influence of gravity itself. When bees were induced to build comb on substrates at four different orientations with respect to gravity, they always made cells with one vertex pointing directly toward the substrate. This produced horizontal and vertical cells on vertical and horizontal substrates, respectively, but yielded intermediate orientations on oblique substrates. The apparent preference for vertical and horizontal cells may simply reflect substrate orientation in the rectilinear hives from which cell measurements have been taken.

but they always build it pont upwards,

 

[Anduril]

but they always build it pont upwards,

One time when I did a rushed cut out, one frame ended up with comb at 90 degrees to what it should have been. The bees didn't seem to mind, the queen laid eggs, the nurse bees fed them, the cells were capped over and an arch of honey in place. This went on for a few cycles until I removed the frame. I do not see a problem with what Derekm is doing.

 

[enrico]

But did they twist the cells to be the right way up, that is my question, or did they leave them flat side up? Or didn't you notice?
E

 

[Anduril]

They didn't twist the cells round.

 

[drstitson]

"but they always build it point upwards"

NO they don't. That is precisely what the article is saying. they are happy to build vertically orientated, horizontally orientated, or anything in between, depending upon the angle of the surface they are starting from.

 

[drstitson]

here's wedmore's thoughts on the subject.

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-v...ence-of-cell-size/the-building-of-honey-comb/