Amms more swarmy than other types?

[Ian123]

I found carnies and Buckfast much swarmier.

Yes some did indeed let there bias show. it’s no surprise that those races/strains that have had the most work or selection out perform others. A question I’ve asked a number of times to those extolling certain races is how many groups/breeders we have in the U.K. that can compare.

 

[madasafish]

I found carnies and Buckfast much swarmier.

If I believed you were being serious I would have to say you must be a bad beekeeper - wrt my experience with Buckfast. Carnies? my experience says I would agree with you...

But it's like cars.. no matter how unreliable a model will be there is always one owner who swears blind he/she has never had a problem. Fortunately cars have statistics on Warranty Claims to back up/disprove judgements.

Where are the statistics for bees?

 

[B+.]

Just a thought but I wonder if it was ever in date with regards to Amc swarming tendency.
If they tried to manage them in the same way and in the same hives they did their native bees, then swarming intent would have been unfairly judged.

I agree. It is also only one mans' view. We don't know what method he used to score them so we can't really judge whether it was an objective assessment. However, it is all we have - so, whatever it's faults may be, we have to take this as a first pass at comparing the inherent qualities of different races.
One of the things I have learned over the years is that even the scores aren't completely reliable. They are just the mean score and there will always be variances with some being above, some below. It is all in the detail and how you analyse the variance.

 

[B+.]

Where are the statistics for bees?

www.beebreed.eu

 

[Murox]

B+ said - chart looks remarkably similar, if not exactly the same, as Brother Adams - which is about 100 years out of date. I would suggest it is a bit like an MOT on your car: reliable at the time of issue....and the same is true of mellifera and all the other races. They can be improved, but it takes work... question is: are the people/groups we have in this country fit for purpose? Do they have the will/means to do the work necessary to improve mellifera in the same way carnica has been?........

SDM said - I highly doubt Amm have seen anything like the level of selection against swarming tendency that others have and were never considered to have a particularly low swarming intent....A few decades of selection could correct at least some of......

For want of a better word said - had limited experience of pure native bees and or had only experienced the French Amm and or the same possibly French derivatives now being sold as Irish Amm.... they were depending on wing morphometry to distinguish the race possibly made a lot of incorrect decisions... now we have high powered DNA analyses things are very different! ….....”

If individuals are prepared and have the means to develop and select everything may be possible.
I think the bee's ability to thrive and produce surplus also depends hugely upon weather and forage and the way it is managed. Swarming is driven by more than genetics. I have a 3 year old queen/hive of locals (probably amm types -were sourced from an amm area) that has never swarmed; I induced them to produce some queen cells this year in order to increase.
As For want of a better word suggested ”All bees swarm. Adaptation and selection for local environmental condition play a large part.........”

 

[Stiffy]

Actually he was looking for opinions which would include personal observations?

Just trying to prevent this discussion descending into the inevitable squabble of 'mines better or bigger than yours' which doesn't do anyone any good or help the OP.
I also advised that I considered the chart to be a generally good base for the traits of each.
S

 

[SDM]

I

Where are the statistics for bees?

Here , or at least this one covers hygenic behaviour, swarming and aggression. Honey production was covered also but not here.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...t_genetic_origin_in_a_pan-European_experiment

 

[B+.]

If individuals are prepared and have the means to develop and select everything may be possible.
I think the bee's ability to thrive and produce surplus also depends hugely upon weather and forage and the way it is managed. Swarming is driven by more than genetics. I have a 3 year old queen/hive of locals (probably amm types -were sourced from an amm area) that has never swarmed; I induced them to produce some queen cells this year in order to increase.
As For want of a better word suggested ”All bees swarm. Adaptation and selection for local environmental condition play a large part.........”

You are quite right. Environment can/does have an effect so the statistical model you use to compare one thing with another has to negate environmental impact as much as possible. There will always be an error term though.
An individual colony cannot provide statistically relevant information. We can only examine a hypothesis using large volumes of data which is gathered according to a standard protocol.
For want of a better word argues for cornish Amm to be taken as a special case and to be treated as a separate sub-species. The problem with this is that the volume of data, if any, would be so low that the confidence in any statistical measure produced would be low too.

 

[Angry_Mob]

I started with AMM, I've purchased AMM queens and I've found them to be highly inclined for swarming, even so much that that years queens have tried to swarm.

Carnica that I have tried are much better than AMM in terms of swarming; not a patch on the Buckfast though; however I'd love to get my hands on some of B+'s better carnicas to try.

In comparison the Buckfast I have gotten from BHP are better in every measurable way than AMM, three seasons before the first queen superseded (not swarmed) honey yields are significantly higher, calmer and a delight to inspect.

 

[For want of a better word]

On the subject of "charts" over 100 years old.....

Majority of beekeepers that were not well heeled aristocracy, Doctors or Clergy, were the poor men waiting at the rich mans gate, and due to their poverty kept their bees in skeps as was the method of the cottager of those days.
Skeppists bred swarminess into their bees as a necessity of their method of beekeeping.

The modern beekeeper with removable frames and stacking boxes has required the bee breeders to produce bees that are productive easy to handle and without a swarming tendency.

The Cornish Amm has also undergone this bee improvement... and although I respect others choice of bee, I can not understand why a beekeeper in Cornwall would want to import exotic species to annually requeen their stock ( Bringing in even more viral and other pests and diseases with them) when what we have will out perform the exotics given the same environmental conditions.

Perhaps availability of stock is the problem here.... or the cost of queens as they sell for a premium?

Yeghes da

 

[jeff33]

Perhaps availability of stock is the problem here.... or the cost of queens as they sell for a premium?

Or the fact that beekeeping is becoming so trendy that beeks don't really care what they have so long as they have bees and honey. I had countless arguments with a couple of 'Sunday beeks' down the road from my apiary because some were getting buckfast and let them swarm through 'hands off management' whilst others were just keeping feisty mongrels with no incline of improving their stock.

What hope is there for me to work on improving my stock through natural selection around that?

I don't want to generalise here as I know that some breeders in the UK breed true Amms but there also seems to be a lot of beeks that will sell you Amms that are clearly mongrels. Again these could be giving a bad name to Amms. I don't know if I ever had true Amms but I have some mixed race (due to open mating conditions here) that are inclined to swarm while some sisters are not. I also had true carnies from B+ that did not swarm.

 

[madasafish]

Or the fact that beekeeping is becoming so trendy that beeks don't really care what they have so long as they have bees and honey. I had countless arguments with a couple of 'Sunday beeks' down the road from my apiary because some were getting buckfast and let them swarm through 'hands off management' whilst others were just keeping feisty mongrels with no incline of improving their stock.

What hope is there for me to work on improving my stock through natural selection around that?

I don't want to generalise here as I know that some breeders in the UK breed true Amms but there also seems to be a lot of beeks that will sell you Amms that are clearly mongrels. Again these could be giving a bad name to Amms. I don't know if I ever had true Amms but I have some mixed race (due to open mating conditions here) that are inclined to swarm while some sisters are not. I also had true carnies from B+ that did not swarm.

Unless the UK's governing body for beekeepers takes a stand, the above will continue.

Oh there is no UK Governing Body. The one that claims to be is not and is just about capable (NOW) of running its own affairs sensibly - although it's marketing campaign on behalf of bees has been very successful.

If you want a regulated industry , then be prepared to pay for it both in hard cash and in restrictions on owners of bees and what bees they own.

Those who advocate a ban on imports will of course drive beekeeping costs sky high as early Spring queens to repace winter losses will only be home grown, very expensive (Sipa charge £75 for an overwintered Queen and sell out each year) and scarce.. And UK spring Nucs WITH current year queens will be largely unobtainable before June except at premium costs (£250 PER NUC
?)


Beekeeping with restrictions will become the hobby of the rich... and those who live in the more temperate South...

But as the restrictions are likely to be uneforceable - they will be undermined by large scale evasion.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Actually he was looking for opinions which would include personal observations?

I was looking for beeks experiences and opinions..
This season I've had two colonys swarm one Amm f1(cbayhoney) and a Italian mongrel queen which I've raised my self last year.
I've demared three colonys and had to split numerous colonys as a preventative for swarming.
My thoughts and observations are that my Amm stock produced lots more swarm cells conpared to my Italian mongrels.
Even my demaree colonys were the same when comparing both types.
My Italian mongrels have built up quicker and have been about the same for stability, temper.
Honey production has been less from my Amm bees.
Im putting a picture up of three colonys they are local Italian mongrels and they have been my third in line for honey production, and have been split three times (6 frame nucs)
The parent colony have produced 2 supers of none osr spring honey and now have 4 supers on, which until a week ago was being capped and maybe will need a 5th.
The first nuc taken on the 4th of May has now one super, both the first nuc and parent colony have been split again in the last few weeks.

I know the observation concerning honey production doesn't have anything to do with swarming but I still wanted to post my findings.

AS JBM has said I'm still a youngster and have relative limited experience..
Thankyou for your replys and information you have provided.

Ps.. Apologies for not replying sooner, I've been so busy with work.
Cheers

 

[Curly green finger's]

Italian mongrel colonys
Pic one, parent colony, first split and second split(nuc)
The first split has one of my Italian mongrel queen's 2020 and the nuc has a Amm Queen 2020.

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