Amc in the UK - The evidence

[B+.]

I don't post much on here anymore but I thought I'd share this for the doubters and, as an update, for those of you who've been on here long enough to know the history.

Way back in 2017, ITLD (Into-the-lions-den) issued a challenge for those of us who thought we had good queens to send him some to test. I sent two open mated daughters of one of my test queens (NL-55-2-70-2016). Unfortunately, only one was accepted but Murray mated ~30 daughters with his own drones and tested them in his commercial operation. He overwintered some in nucs (https://twitter.com/calluna4u/status/973582373995630592 ) then sent some more to other breeders for further testing.
As some of you will know, he had a few problems last year and embargoed his queens last year. This is the result (https://twitter.com/calluna4u/status/1239202762098950145 ).

There is a lot of nonsense talked about bees on forums like this. The biggest nonsense being that "native" bees perform best in this country. No evidence is ever produced - just a lot of propaganda. Well, here is the evidence that my Amc have performed well, not just here in Bedfordshire but all the way up north in Perthshire.

Last year, my stock tested at 96-100% hygienic (https://twitter.com/Bplus_Amc/status/1154150681630130176/photo/1 ) and high VSH so I look forward to breeding these lines further. Alongside my own lines, I test stock from other breeders in the programme.

I am often asked how all of this breeding work can help the "average" beekeeper. Well, my queens find their way all over the country. Either directly or indirectly via large-scale beekeepers like ITLD.

 

[Swarm]

Dear me.
No you don't post often but when you do, you always seem to be promoting your bees and pouring scorn on others.

 

[B+.]

Dear me.
No you don't post often but when you do, you always seem to be promoting your bees and pouring scorn on others.

I see nothing much has changed here. Why do you think people like me no longer post here? Even good news is trashed. There is nothing wrong with relaying good news, especially when it's verified independently by the largest beekeeping organisation in the country!
I wouldn't mind if your lot had the guts to accept the challenge. That, at least, would have been reasonable.

 

[For want of a better word]

I am often asked how all of this breeding work can help the "average" beekeeper. Well, my queens find their way all over the country. Either directly or indirectly via large-scale beekeepers like ITLD

In a "Broad Brush" DNA analysis (2019 season) of our local bees, I sampled a colony that was headed up by a queen imported from ???Greece as an out lyer to prove the Apis mellifera mellifera ( Native Black bee) protocols were working.

This specific queen ( 20 x pairs Drone antennae sample) showed up
35% A m mellifera, 2% A m ligustica and 63% A m carnica

The queen was supposed to be "pure" Carniolian.... I am beginning to wonder what pure means?

Fortunately for my native bee queen rearing program the colony is up by the North Cornish coast ( Bude) well away from my bees!

I attended a lecture recently given by Norman Carrik and he referred to some recently published papers that showed that locally adapted bees* do better than imported varieties, and also to work accomplished by Roger Dewhurst showing hygienic behavior in his Amm colonies.
* No specific race mentioned.

Bees are bees it seems

Chons da

 

[Millet]

I don't post much on here anymore but I thought I'd share this for the doubters and, as an update, for those of you who've been on here long enough to know the history.

Way back in 2017, ITLD (Into-the-lions-den) issued a challenge for those of us who thought we had good queens to send him some to test. I sent two open mated daughters of one of my test queens (NL-55-2-70-2016). Unfortunately, only one was accepted but Murray mated ~30 daughters with his own drones and tested them in his commercial operation. He overwintered some in nucs (https://twitter.com/calluna4u/status/973582373995630592 ) then sent some more to other breeders for further testing.
As some of you will know, he had a few problems last year and embargoed his queens last year. This is the result (https://twitter.com/calluna4u/status/1239202762098950145 ).

There is a lot of nonsense talked about bees on forums like this. The biggest nonsense being that "native" bees perform best in this country. No evidence is ever produced - just a lot of propaganda. Well, here is the evidence that my Amc have performed well, not just here in Bedfordshire but all the way up north in Perthshire.

Last year, my stock tested at 96-100% hygienic (https://twitter.com/Bplus_Amc/status/1154150681630130176/photo/1 ) and high VSH so I look forward to breeding these lines further. Alongside my own lines, I test stock from other breeders in the programme.

I am often asked how all of this breeding work can help the "average" beekeeper. Well, my queens find their way all over the country. Either directly or indirectly via large-scale beekeepers like ITLD.

All i can say is well done P..the hard work seems to be paying of.

 

[Ian123]

I am often asked how all of this breeding work can help the "average" beekeeper. Well, my queens find their way all over the country. Either directly or indirectly via large-scale beekeepers like ITLD

In a "Broad Brush" DNA analysis (2019 season) of our local bees, I sampled a colony that was headed up by a queen imported from ???Greece as an out lyer to prove the Apis mellifera mellifera ( Native Black bee) protocols were working.

This specific queen ( 20 x pairs Drone antennae sample) showed up
35% A m mellifera, 2% A m ligustica and 63% A m carnica

The queen was supposed to be "pure" Carniolian.... I am beginning to wonder what pure means?

Fortunately for my native bee queen rearing program the colony is up by the North Cornish coast ( Bude) well away from my bees!

I attended a lecture recently given by Norman Carrik and he referred to some recently published papers that showed that locally adapted bees* do better than imported varieties, and also to work accomplished by Roger Dewhurst showing hygienic behavior in his Amm colonies.
* No specific race mentioned.

Bees are bees it seems

Chons da

So what did she cost you?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Dear me.
No you don't post often but when you do, you always seem to be promoting your bees and pouring scorn on others.

There is a lot of nonsense talked about bees on forums like this..

Not so much now you don't post as often

Well, here is the evidence that my Amc have performed well, not just here in Bedfordshire but all the way up north in Perthshire.

Makes no difference - still wouldn't touch them with a bargepole.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

especially when it's verified independently by the largest beekeeping organisation in the country!
.

And what organisation would that be? you don't seem to mention it by name

 

[B+.]

I am often asked how all of this breeding work can help the "average" beekeeper. Well, my queens find their way all over the country. Either directly or indirectly via large-scale beekeepers like ITLD

In a "Broad Brush" DNA analysis (2019 season) of our local bees, I sampled a colony that was headed up by a queen imported from ???Greece as an out lyer to prove the Apis mellifera mellifera ( Native Black bee) protocols were working.

This specific queen ( 20 x pairs Drone antennae sample) showed up
35% A m mellifera, 2% A m ligustica and 63% A m carnica

The queen was supposed to be "pure" Carniolian.... I am beginning to wonder what pure means?

Fortunately for my native bee queen rearing program the colony is up by the North Cornish coast ( Bude) well away from my bees!

I attended a lecture recently given by Norman Carrik and he referred to some recently published papers that showed that locally adapted bees* do better than imported varieties, and also to work accomplished by Roger Dewhurst showing hygienic behavior in his Amm colonies.
* No specific race mentioned.

Bees are bees it seems

Chons da

A Greek carnica? - OK, I don't have any so I wouldn't comment without more information. As far as I know, there are 3 Greek groups who work as part of the Smartbees programme: GR-1 works with A.m.macedonica, GR-2 works with A.m.adami and GR-3 works with A.m.cecropia. There are no carnica only groups.
"Locally adapted" doesn't necessarily mean the bees that are primarily used in that region are best performers (see Dr Ralph Büchler at the NHS on YouTube). He gave the example of one carnica line that performed better than the ligustica in Finland even though Finnish beekeepers use ligustica extensively. You have to look at it trait by trait. That is where breeding values are useful.
The queens I tested last year were born/mated in 2018, tested in 2019 and receive their breeding values in Feb 2020 - so, a queen that I breed from this year will have gone through at least 2 (3 in the case of 1b/4a drone mothers) winters without treatment for varroa. This is what we call the vitality test.
To be considered a potential 2a queen ("breeder" queen - I hate this term because it means nothing), a queen must score above 100% in at least 4 traits. This is called "Class A". If the queen also scores above 100% in the varroa index, it is called "Class Av". If you look at one of the queens I will use as a 2a dam this year (https://www2.hu-berlin.de/beebreed/...band=55&p_zuechter=35&p_buchnr=18&p_jahr=2018), she should be awarded Class Av because she was above 100% in all categories. This one was only 96% hygienic though so I will look carefully at the 1b/4a sire line to boost performance in subsequent generations.

 

[B+.]

And what organisation would that be? you don't seem to mention it by name

I actually gave a link to ITLDs Twitter comment. We all know who he is.

 

[B+.]

Makes no difference - still wouldn't touch them with a bargepole.

That is your choice. Others feel differently though. We should respect each others right to choose.

 

[B+.]

All i can say is well done P..the hard work seems to be paying of.

Thanks Millet.
I have an analysis of the expected breeding values for the 2020 queens I'll test on behalf of other breeders infront of me now. If they perform to expectation, they'll improve my future stock even more. It's about continuous improvement!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I actually gave a link to ITLDs Twitter comment. We all know who he is.

I know Murray's piled on a few pounds but to label him the largest in the UK is a bit much.
And he's not an organisation, he's a director of a single commercial enterprise.
Your implication is that some organisation (Such as the BFA) had endorsed your queens, not a private individual

 

[Murox]

I don't post much on here anymore but I thought I'd share this for the doubters and, as an update, for those of you who've been on here long enough to know the history.

Way back in 2017, ITLD (Into-the-lions-den) issued a challenge for those of us who thought we had good queens to send him some to test. I sent two open mated daughters of one of my test queens (NL-55-2-70-2016). Unfortunately, only one was accepted but Murray mated ~30 daughters with his own drones and tested them in his commercial operation. He overwintered some in nucs (https://twitter.com/calluna4u/status/973582373995630592 ) then sent some more to other breeders for further testing.
As some of you will know, he had a few problems last year and embargoed his queens last year. This is the result (https://twitter.com/calluna4u/status/1239202762098950145 ).

There is a lot of nonsense talked about bees on forums like this. The biggest nonsense being that "native" bees perform best in this country. No evidence is ever produced - just a lot of propaganda. Well, here is the evidence that my Amc have performed well, not just here in Bedfordshire but all the way up north in Perthshire.

Last year, my stock tested at 96-100% hygienic (https://twitter.com/Bplus_Amc/status/1154150681630130176/photo/1 ) and high VSH so I look forward to breeding these lines further. Alongside my own lines, I test stock from other breeders in the programme.

I am often asked how all of this breeding work can help the "average" beekeeper. Well, my queens find their way all over the country. Either directly or indirectly via large-scale beekeepers like ITLD.

Thats all very encouraging news, great to hear.

 

[B+.]

I know Murray's piled on a few pounds but to label him the largest in the UK is a bit much.
And he's not an organisation, he's a director of a single commercial enterprise.
Your implication is that some organisation (Such as the BFA) had endorsed your queens, not a private individual

No. I didn't.
I was very clear and I gave references to the sources I used.
I meant "largest" in terms of the number of colonies he manages (OK. Perhaps I should say, his organisation manages since he doesn't do it all personally - but this is getting very picky!)

 

[B+.]

Thats all very encouraging news, great to hear.

I am doing natural mite drops at the moment. One of my 2019 test group dropped 0-2-2 (4 mites) in 21 days without treatment.
This is a new line for me but it was recommended as very hygienic by another breeder whose views I respect. It has a reputation for being extremely docile and stable on the comb. If this proves to be the case, I'll consider this line for inclusion via II in the future

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I actually gave a link to ITLDs Twitter comment. We all know who he is.

Yes, and I saw his tweet previously - all embargoed due to EFB issues

 

[B+.]

Yes, and I saw his tweet previously - all embargoed due to EFB issues

So what?
You should be singing the praises of a beekeeper who voluntarily forgoes the profit he would have made on queen sales instead of casting nasturtiums. Unless you are suggesting that the queens I sent him were to blame - in which case, you are accusing him of being unable to detect EFB in an experimental line stretching back to 2017 (which had previously been cleared both by myself and the NBU - not to mention the breeders of prior generations who look for any susceptibility to disease)

To be clear, ITLD runs a large operation and, unfortunately, things sometimes do go wrong (possibly due to events outside his control - e.g. other beekeepers moving diseased bees around). You have to look at how someone who is faced with that scenario reacts. IMHO he has done everything that could possibly be asked of him.

If you read his tweet properly, he says it's a pity for the customers who could have had them. The nucs are looking good but he'll use them in his own operation rather than sell them and risk negative publicity. Really, JBM...can't you just acknowledge that someone has done something good for beekeeping?

 

[SDM]

I attended a lecture recently given by Norman Carrik and he referred to some recently published papers that showed that locally adapted bees* do better than imported varieties, /QUOTE]

How recently? About 2 weeks ago he said they weren't published.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Really, JBM...can't you just acknowledge that someone has done something good for beekeeping?

That's a matter of opinion.

I have the utmost respect for Murray, as for the rest.........................