All About the Layens Hives

[Malcolm B.]

The expansive variety of bee hives in use around the world, plus the local variations each style may have, interests me, as I'm sure it interests other.s

The Layens Hive is a method and style that I've only just heard about. I did a search on the net and found the dimensions for construction plus a few positive and negative comments - but that is as far as my Layens hive knowledge now extends.

There has already been interest shown here very recently in this type of hive.

I wonder if we can extend our knowledge through this thread, asking those with even slight experience to voice their knowledge and opinions regarding the Layens hive, and thereby begin a discussion.

To start with,

(a) What are the advantages of the Layens hive?

(b) What are the disadvantages of using this method?

(c) Are boxes and frames readily available for those without the means to build their own?

(d) What is the best or most effective method of honey extraction?

(e) Is it possible, or even desirable to adapt a conventional honey extractor?

(f) Does the Layens hive design encourage more, similar or less honey production?

Over to you, lads and lasses of the beekeeping persuasion. Let's see your comments and thoughts.

Malcolm B.

 

[Adam Fletcher]

I can answer c without having to dive back into books to remind myself...

Hives are available from here
https://www.thorne.co.uk/hives/laye...LWFKce9lXMpWzNEN9CYVbu5JPVv_YBlhoC6XEQAvD_BwE

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

four hundred pounds a pop!

 

[fian]

I can answer c without having to dive back into books to remind myself...

Hives are available from here
https://www.thorne.co.uk/hives/laye...LWFKce9lXMpWzNEN9CYVbu5JPVv_YBlhoC6XEQAvD_BwE

That would be a modified layens to British measures. And regarding the price about 10 times more expensive (a part could be admitted due to insularity, quality and finish). A supposedly premium product for adventurers with pockets overflowing with cash.

 

[Adam Fletcher]

That would be a modified layens to British measures. And regarding the price about 10 times more expensive (a part could be admitted due to insularity, quality and finish). A supposedly premium product for adventurers with pockets overflowing with cash.

But a complete, assembled national hive from the same website is over £500...

https://www.thorne.co.uk/hives/laye...LWFKce9lXMpWzNEN9CYVbu5JPVv_YBlhoC6XEQAvD_BwE
The frames are slightly longer and slightly narrower than a standard Layens 440x340mm as opposed to 404.8 x 328.6mm, I know this discussion is about layens hives but there are similar horizontal hives with many options of frame size.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

But a complete, assembled national hive from the same website is over £500...

but there are plenty of other suppliers that will sell them a heck of a lot cheaper - assembled or flatpack

 

[fian]

But a complete, assembled national hive from the same website is over £500...

https://www.thorne.co.uk/hives/laye...LWFKce9lXMpWzNEN9CYVbu5JPVv_YBlhoC6XEQAvD_BwE
The frames are slightly longer and slightly narrower than a standard Layens 440x340mm as opposed to 404.8 x 328.6mm, I know this discussion is about layens hives but there are similar horizontal hives with many options of frame size.

https://www.latiendadelapicultor.com/colmenas-layens/colmena-layens-entrelazada.html

 

[fian]

Regarding the dimensions, the original internal measurements for a Layens frame are 310mm wide and 370mm high. I seem to remember that the original number of frames was 20 (horizontal hive) although due to the fact that transhumance is carried out in the Mediterranean, its number was reduced to 12 and in the last decade the increases have become fashionable.

 

[Adam Fletcher]

but there are plenty of other suppliers that will sell them a heck of a lot cheaper - assembled or flatpack

Very true, I was just trying to compare like with like, I found some compkete Layens (12 frames I think) shipped from Spain at £130.

 

[Adam Fletcher]

Regarding the dimensions, the original internal measurements for a Layens frame are 310mm wide and 370mm high. I seem to remember that the original number of frames was 20 (horizontal hive) although due to the fact that transhumance is carried out in the Mediterranean, its number was reduced to 12 and in the last decade the increases have become fashionable.

It's also interesting to see the variations used in colder climates in Russia, the horizontal hive seems to be adaptable to almost any climate.

 

[Malcolm B.]

Is my assumption - and limited research correct - that Layens Frames are only wired and the bees are then somehow encouraged to draw comb within those frames which becomes supported by the wire?

If this is so, is this method devised to allow conventional centrifugal extraction as apposed to, for example the Japanese method of crushing and filtration which requires new comb to be built after each extraction?

Malcolm B.

 

[Adam Fletcher]

Is my assumption - and limited research correct - that Layens Frames are only wired and the bees are then somehow encouraged to draw comb within those frames which becomes supported by the wire?

If this is so, is this method devised to allow conventional centrifugal extraction as apposed to, for example the Japanese method of crushing and filtration which requires new comb to be built after each extraction?

Malcolm B.

I have seen spinners for Layens frames and foundation sheets, although the thought of shipping a layens extractor from abroad is enough to make me wince (I also don't think I have the knowledge to build one that would be good safe).

 

[Malcolm B.]

(I also don't think I have the knowledge to build one that would be good safe).

We're not talking about hundreds or thousands or revolutions per minute.

My first extractor was hand cranked with a two-to-one advantage. It was pretty basic - effectively just a dustbin with a bearing in the center of the base and a strip of 2 inch wide quarter inch thick bar bolted across the top to hold the top bearing and the offset hand-crank and chain. A square frame held the four honey frames I could extract at a time.

If I wound it too fast it could blow out the wax despite it being held against stainless steel mesh.
My present extractor, a cheap Chinesium make is little better and probably not quite so robust as my original.

If you can do a few repairs to a push bike you could easily make or convert an extractor.

Malcolm B.

 

[fian]

Is my assumption - and limited research correct - that Layens Frames are only wired and the bees are then somehow encouraged to draw comb within those frames which becomes supported by the wire?

If this is so, is this method devised to allow conventional centrifugal extraction as apposed to, for example the Japanese method of crushing and filtration which requires new comb to be built after each extraction?

Malcolm B.

No, in fact there are wax sheets for layens frames.
Regarding the extraction, there are universal versions that admit all the frames (lanstrogth, dadant and layens) and twice as many half rises. It could even process 14*12" frames.

 

[Murox]

@Malcolm B. I know I'm late to the party.......here is my experience and answers to your questions'
(a) What are the advantages of the Layens hive?
its the system not the hive, but it works well enough if you don't want to visit and fiddle often, and its good a producing huge colonies and lots of drones as well I've noticed.

(b) What are the disadvantages of using this method?
as above but not the best honey making hive and you need two people to move them

(c) Are boxes and frames readily available for those without the means to build their own?
yes at huge cost

(d) What is the best or most effective method of honey extraction?
I've done crush and strain, but find an extractor more satisfactory and far less wasteful of resources

(e) Is it possible, or even desirable to adapt a conventional honey extractor?
You do not necessarily need to adapt anything, I have a moden stainless steel extractor by SAF bought second hand for under £200 that handles layens, 14x12 and the others.granted it will only do two of the bigger sizes at a time but it suits my current scale.

(f) Does the Layens hive design encourage more, similar or less honey production?
I think most horizontal system produce less honey on average.

 

[Adam Fletcher]

@Malcolm B. I know I'm late to the party.......here is my experience and answers to your questions'
(a) What are the advantages of the Layens hive?
its the system not the hive, but it works well enough if you don't want to visit and fiddle often, and its good a producing huge colonies and lots of drones as well I've noticed.

(b) What are the disadvantages of using this method?
as above but not the best honey making hive and you need two people to move them

(c) Are boxes and frames readily available for those without the means to build their own?
yes at huge cost

(d) What is the best or most effective method of honey extraction?
I've done crush and strain, but find an extractor more satisfactory and far less wasteful of resources

(e) Is it possible, or even desirable to adapt a conventional honey extractor?
You do not necessarily need to adapt anything, I have a moden stainless steel extractor by SAF bought second hand for under £200 that handles layens, 14x12 and the others.granted it will only do two of the bigger sizes at a time but it suits my current scale.

(f) Does the Layens hive design encourage more, similar or less honey production?
I think most horizontal system produce less honey on average.

Can you move a 12/14 frame hive single handed? It looks like you might need a forklift for some if the 25+ frame hives....

 

[fian]

Can you move a 12/14 frame hive single handed? It looks like you might need a forklift for some if the 25+ frame hives....

A frame layens full of honey weighs just over 3.5kg (7lbs). It is one of the reasons that led Mediterranean beekeepers to reduce the hive (from 20 to 12 frames) and have supers of half or third of the frame. In addition, the 12-frame hive allows it to be compatible with dadant.

 

[Malcolm B.]

@Malcolm B. I know I'm late to the party.......here is my experience and answers to your questions'

Thank you for the detailed responses Mr Murox - and you're not late! The party has only just begun.

I find it very interesting to explore the advantages and disadvantages of different styles of hives.
Clearly, they all have overruling benefits for the particular individuals who use them (almost) exclusively. - And of course, overruling disadvantages to those who will choose to not use them.

I wonder what is the reason that they are so popular in Spain for example, but not in the UK?
I can understand the more superior insulation properties being beneficial in more northern climes.
Does the insulation benefit work both way, so the hive can remain cooler in hotter climates?
Or is there another reason.?

Malcolm B.

 

[Adam Fletcher]

Thank you for the detailed responses Mr Murox - and you're not late! The party has only just begun.

I find it very interesting to explore the advantages and disadvantages of different styles of hives.
Clearly, they all have overruling benefits for the particular individuals who use them (almost) exclusively. - And of course, overruling disadvantages to those who will choose to not use them.

I wonder what is the reason that they are so popular in Spain for example, but not in the UK?
I can understand the more superior insulation properties being beneficial in more northern climes.
Does the insulation benefit work both way, so the hive can remain cooler in hotter climates?
Or is there another reason.?

Malcolm B.

I think some of the reason they haven't got a lot of traction in the UK is the national hive - standardised and promoted by the government since the 1920s, my mother in law was a Ministry of Agriculture beekeeper and if I mention anything that's not a national or very similar it's not healthy. Also the National was promoted for farmers as a way of pollinating crops and partly because it was 'easy' to move to the next crop, as Fian has pointed out a layens is far from easy to move.

 

[Lislarybees]

Hi Malcolm, I have mostly 14 frame Layens hives and 6 frame Nucs that I bought from Spain. These worked out pretty cheap. All have been populated with caught swarms. Going into this season I had 5 colonies in Layens and now it’s up to 12. I thought 14 frame might be enough in the West of Ireland but that is not the case. I will start building 20 and maybe even 24 frame hives this Winter.

I think the popularity of Layens hives in the US and now starting in the UK and Ireland comes mostly from Dr. Leo Shuraskin and the book ‘Keeping bees with a smile‘ by Feodor Lazutin.
Both of these guys advocate ‘Natural’ beekeeping. Which in their opinion means no treatments, no feeding sugar and working with locally adapted bees (in Lazutins case he was a very strong proponent of Apis Mellifera Mellifera if you are keeping bees in that subspecies natural range). Lazutin also worked with a bigger hive body and frame size than a traditional Layens hive but it’s his system of beekeeping that has been championed by Dr. Shurashkin.

I don’t know if beekeepers in Spain generally adhere to this system of beekeeping when working with their Layens hives but as La Tienda de la Apicultor offer feeders and queen excluders on their website I imagine many do not. Maybe Fian has a better insight?

Just to add my thoughts to what Murox wrote

(a) What are the advantages of the Layens hive?

A big advantage has to be the reduced impact on the brood area of a hive if you are just making a casual inspection. With the frames all touching at the top like a top bar you don’t cause disturbance every time you open the hive lid.

With no supers to move around it’s easier on your back and offers young, old or less able bodied beekeepers a format that possibly suits better. Bee hive just stays in situ permanently.

For less experienced beekeepers you can plan your honey harvest with a fairly simple formula. Leave one full frame of honey at either end of the brood frames and that should be plenty to see the bees through Winter. There should be a good depth of honey on the top of the brood frames which offers winter stores and the frames on the end are for spring expansion.

It is suggested the extra deep frames are more suited to the bees overwintering successfully. The logic of this makes sense to me but I can’t say categorically that is the case. All of my Layens colonies made it through their first winter very well though.


(b) What are the disadvantages of using this method?

A full Layens frame can be heavy to manage In itself.

It can be daunting trying to find the queen in a very full hive. (If you are following Lazutins system you won’t do this very often.)

The 12 and 14 frame hives you can buy readily are not big enough. That means you have to build your own bigger hives. Unless you want to buy supers but for me that kind of undermines the advantages of a horizontal hive. In my first season all my caught swarms built up nicely - some gave a reasonable crop of honey - the biggest drawing out 14 frames. This season some caught swarms had filled out 14 frames by early Summer and I had to start making splits to reduce overcrowding.

(c) Are boxes and frames readily available for those without the means to build their own?

The shipping from Spain is expensive but even with that the hives and frames were not that expensive but i think you will have to build your own bigger hives ultimately.

(d) What is the best or most effective method of honey extraction?

I also used crush and strain last year but purchased an extractor that takes Layens frames from Spain early this Summer. I think that might have jinxed the weather because it hasn’t stopped raining since

(e) Is it possible, or even desirable to adapt a conventional honey extractor?

Beyond my engineering skills

(f) Does the Layens hive design encourage more, similar or less honey production?
I won’t know until I have been able to spin out frames and give them back to colonies next year. My best Layens hive last year from a swarm caught in early June filled out a 14 frame hive and gave 6 full frames of honey to take - leaving two full frames to book end the brood frames.

Best wishes,
Colin