Advice please - winter losses

[greandog]

Hi all, some advice would be welcomed. Went into winter with 6 hives, treated, fed etc. However I have lost four hives over winter for whatever reasons (all were on double broods, one was weak going into winter though), gutting really.

However the difficulty is as follows. One of the remaining hives is healthy, good temperament (single brood currently). The other is a really horrible, defensive hive (doing really well already) which I was close to culling last year but couldn’t face doing it (had to deal with a similar hive last year which was awful). TBH these bees need to go, not good with neighbours. However with severely depleted hive numbers I am thinking of doing the following:

Monitor first hive, try to expand onto double brood as they continue through the season etc and possibly make a split or two.

Buy a queen or two and make nucs, possibly with some brood from the horrible hive to get them going and then dispatch the remaining hive.

Not a great deal else I can do I’m guessing? (Apart from possibly catching swarms).

Thanks, Liam.

 

[Sutty]

I guess it partly depends on how nasty they are and how much problem that causes eg with neighbours.
One possibility if not too problematic is to remove the nasty queen, split and requeen each half with a bought in queen, they will get better tempered as the nasty bees die off but it will take some weeks.
Another possibility is to render them queenless and let them raise a new queen with eggs from the nice colony. I did this a couple of years ago, the downside is they can go from "nasty" to "complete b@stards" when rendered queenless! You may be able to make life easier by caging the nasty Q for a few days (so no eggs or young larvae) then introducing eggs and dispatching the Q. You may need to wait a week or two to give the new Q the best chance of getting mated.
The 3rd possibility is kill the nasty queen and unite both hives - you will obviously still have the nasty bees, but you will have a large colony getting progressively better behaved, which you can then split fairly soon.

 

[Swarm]

Defensive bees can prove very difficult to requeen, often bumping off your expensive purchase or accepting her only to bump her off later and raising their own from her first round of eggs. I would save my money and use a frame of eggs from your good colony once they have expanded.
Beekeepers can be sneaky as well and there are ways to get around their obstinate behaviour. With your horrid hive on double brood, get your queen in the bottom box and bring a good amount of brood frames into the upper box above a queen excluder and leave them like that for a week, they will now have no young larvae in the top box with which to create a queen. Return to the hive and replace the queen excluder with a double screen board and add a frame of eggs from your good hive. Give them four days and leave them with an open charged cell so you now eliminate cells drawn on older larvae and you are left with a well fed queen. Have the entrance of your double screen board at the back of the hive and now move it to a new floor. Once you have a laying queen you can deal with the naughty one.

 

[Sutty]

Defensive bees can prove very difficult to requeen, often bumping off your expensive purchase or accepting her only to bump her off later and raising their own from her first round of eggs. I would save my money and use a frame of eggs from your good colony once they have expanded.
Beekeepers can be sneaky as well and there are ways to get around their obstinate behaviour. With your horrid hive on double brood, get your queen in the bottom box and bring a good amount of brood frames into the upper box above a queen excluder and leave them like that for a week, they will now have no young larvae in the top box with which to create a queen. Return to the hive and replace the queen excluder with a double screen board and add a frame of eggs from your good hive. Give them four days and leave them with an open charged cell so you now eliminate cells drawn on older larvae and you are left with a well fed queen. Have the entrance of your double screen board at the back of the hive and now move it to a new floor. Once you have a laying queen you can deal with the naughty one.

That's interesting - how reliably will the produce queen cells in the top box if there is a laying queen just the other side of a screen board?

 

[Swarm]

It's a double screen, they cannot transfer pheromone but they do benefit from the warmth. With the rear entrance, foragers leave but return to the old, well known entrance so you have a box of nurse bees who soon jump on the donated frame.

 

[Sutty]

It's a double screen, they cannot transfer pheromone but they do benefit from the warmth. With the rear entrance, foragers leave but return to the old, well known entrance so you have a box of nurse bees who soon jump on the donated frame.

Ah - thanks for the clarification! I'd missed the "double" bit!

 

[Sutty]

I guess this could have the advantage of not necessarily having to find the Q initially: just shake all the bees into the bottom box (if not too full) then put the bee-free brood frames in the top box above the excluder & the nurse bees will move back up to the brood.
Once you have a laying Q in the top box you could move the lower box away to lose the flying bees too, making finding the nasty Q easier.

 

[jeff33]

Yes at this time of the year I tend to requeen by restricting the nasty queen so she cannot lay (I bought a frame cage or use a push in cage)and either put a graft in or frame from a chosen colony. I will usually leave 3-4 good cells and split when they are close to emerging. With the weather we are having though, I wouldn't start any of this until the end of April at the earliest.

 

[greandog]

Thank you all for your helpful replies. I’ll give it a couple of weeks to ponder and then take action

 

[Antipodes]

Thank you all for your helpful replies. I’ll give it a couple of weeks to ponder and then take action

I'm sorry to hear of the problems there with your bees greandog.
Alternatively you could try this. Put a frame with some nice queen eggs in a box under the nasty hive with the entrance in the same direction as the original nasty hive, Put a frame of food on one side of it and a pollen frame on the other.
Put the nasty hive above the bottom box over a double screen with a sheet of newspaper between them, with the entrance of that one (the top one) at the rear. There is no need to find the nasty queen at this stage.
A nice queen will be made in the bottom box and when they are increasing in numbers (you will need to wait a while for this), find and kill the old queen in the top box and unite. Just leave the front facing entrance.

 

[jeff33]

I'm sorry to hear of the problems there with your bees greandog.
Alternatively you could try this. Put a frame with some nice queen eggs in a box under the nasty hive with the entrance in the same direction as the original nasty hive, Put a frame of food on one side of it and a pollen frame on the other.
Put the nasty hive above the bottom box over a double screen with a sheet of newspaper between them, with the entrance of that one (the top one) at the rear. There is no need to find the nasty queen at this stage.
A nice queen will be made in the bottom box and when they are increasing in numbers (you will need to wait a while for this), find and kill the old queen in the top box and unite. Just leave the front facing entrance.

You don't get any nurse bees that way though, it's only your flyers which will return through the original entrance or is your frame of eggs from the nice queen transferred with bees on?

 

[ericbeaumont]

couple of weeks to ponder

Bear in mind that the longer you leave it, the more that defensive drones will be produced, which may affect mating and defeat your aim.

Quickest way to avoid drone production is to kill that queen and unite now.

 

[Antipodes]

You don't get any nurse bees that way though, it's only your flyers which will return through the original entrance or is your frame of eggs from the nice queen transferred with bees on?

No, that's not correct Jeff. You will get nurse bees in the bottom box as any bees that have marked the entrance will return to it. They will mark it from about three days old, and at an average age of six, so done at the right time the bottom box will be loaded with plenty of young nurse aged bees to make queen cells.
Division of labour is flexible and plastic in any case see Robinson et al., 1992; Huang and Robinson, 1996; Amdam et al., 2005.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

so done at the right time the bottom box will be loaded with plenty of young nurse aged bees to make queen cells.

not really - you will get a sudden large influx of older foragers making for the old (bottom) entrance but it's not going to be a sudden mass migration of nurse bees to cover this new brood area, but rather a few dribs and drabs drifting in through the new entrance. the top box will lose a big chunk of bees so the remaining nurse bees will be more reluctant to leave the brood, also as nurse bees are only occasional exiters they will do an initial orientation on leaving the hive on almost each occasion so will return to the main hive not the new bottom box.
so you will get mostly older bees not nurse bees to make your QCs

 

[Somerset Beekeeper]

I guess it partly depends on how nasty they are and how much problem that causes eg with neighbours.
One possibility if not too problematic is to remove the nasty queen, split and requeen each half with a bought in queen, they will get better tempered as the nasty bees die off but it will take some weeks.
Another possibility is to render them queenless and let them raise a new queen with eggs from the nice colony. I did this a couple of years ago, the downside is they can go from "nasty" to "complete b@stards" when rendered queenless! You may be able to make life easier by caging the nasty Q for a few days (so no eggs or young larvae) then introducing eggs and dispatching the Q. You may need to wait a week or two to give the new Q the best chance of getting mated.
The 3rd possibility is kill the nasty queen and unite both hives - you will obviously still have the nasty bees, but you will have a large colony getting progressively better behaved, which you can then split fairly soon.

In my experience, the bees temprement comes from the queen's pheromones, replace the queen and the temperament changes in a few hours. There's no need to wait several weeks for the 'nasty' beeso die out. Temprement com from the queen's pheromones alone. I agree with the rest of the comments.

 

[Sutty]

In my experience, the bees temprement comes from the queen's pheromones, replace the queen and the temperament changes in a few hours. There's no need to wait several weeks for the 'nasty' beeso die out. Temprement com from the queen's pheromones alone. I agree with the rest of the comments.

I'd agree there is sometimes an immediate improvement, but not always & not completely.

 

[Eyeman]

In my experience, the bees temprement comes from the queen's pheromones, replace the queen and the temperament changes in a few hours. There's no need to wait several weeks for the 'nasty' beeso die out. Temprement com from the queen's pheromones alone. I agree with the rest of the comments.

Having requeened my share of defensive hives, some definitely take time to come round p

 

[ericbeaumont]

no need to wait several weeks for the 'nasty' beeso die out. Temprement com from the queen's pheromones alone

Certainty in beekeeping is unwise; improvement in temper is variable and can take 6 hours or 6 weeks.

 

[jeff33]

not really - you will get a sudden large influx of older foragers making for the old (bottom) entrance but it's not going to be a sudden mass migration of nurse bees to cover this new brood area, but rather a few dribs and drabs drifting in through the new entrance. the top box will lose a big chunk of bees so the remaining nurse bees will be more reluctant to leave the brood, also as nurse bees are only occasional exiters they will do an initial orientation on leaving the hive on almost each occasion so will return to the main hive not the new bottom box.
so you will get mostly older bees not nurse bees to make your QCs

That was my understanding also and the first orientation flight they take will not 'mark the entrance' as such. If you are going to go to all that effort to requeen, you may as well put the frame in the original box with a balanced workforce which will guarantee better qcs...so long as they only have this frame to work with.

In my experience, the bees temprement comes from the queen's pheromones, replace the queen and the temperament changes in a few hours. There's no need to wait several weeks for the 'nasty' beeso die out. Temprement com from the queen's pheromones alone. I agree with the rest of the comments.

Part of it and part will be genetics as the traits can be passed on by drones or a daughter. This is why you don't requeen a nasty hive with larvae from the same hive.

 

[NickM]

I have exactly the same issue as Greandog - winter losses resulting in only 2 healthy double-brood colonies; one headed by a lovely prolific calm queen and the other by a psychopath (they were nasty going into winter, but have come out under a new unmarked queen who is even worse). I had a long term plan for queen breeding and replacement, but this was accelerated last week when my hive inspection set off a retaliatory holocaust and my wife, in a separate and distant part of the garden, got stung on the head, after which I received an Ultimatum.

So I have ordered a couple of mated queens from Laurence, arriving Thursday, and am planning the following;

1. Demaree the nasty hive to get the brood and nurse bees in the top box
2. Kill the old queen and put a caged queen in the bottom box with a frame of emerging brood.
3. Split the top box between 2 nucs - one to receive a caged queen, the other to receive a frame of eggs from the calm queen.

The idea behind the threefold division is to calm them down a bit by reducing numbers, and also to provide back-up in case they dont accept the new mated queens.

Does this seem a reasonable approach?