Advice needed please

[daniellejeynes]

I have been keeping bees since June this year inspecting on a weekly basis and have wrote notes and dates down. I have a quacking or piping noise coming from my nuc, which I put together when my bees made queen cells The queen cells are still capped 2 weeks since the cap. The noise may be coming from this or a bee which does not look like the queen but I think is making a piping noise and doing the action of laying but not actually laying? There is a lot of dead bees in the cells in the nuc. There is no prescence of eggs in either hive. I am worried very much so about this, If you could point me in the right direction I would appreciate it very much so. Also the hives are both a lot louder than usual

Thank you all

 

[Nose Ma]

Okay - first of all don't panic.

Someone who knows what they are doing will be along in a bit I am sure.

I do know that you will be asked where in the UK you are - it makes quite a difference.

Have a cup of tea, and stand by.

NM

 

[daniellejeynes]

I am based in the West Midlands. Kettles on and thanks for the advice

Danielle.

 

[barratt_sab]

I am nothing like an expert, but here are some observations:

I have a quacking or piping noise coming from my nuc, which I put together when my bees made queen cells

If you want confirmation of the sound, search youtube for 'queen piping' and you can hear some examples. I know that someone has posted an audio file of the sound on the forum too, but I can't find it at the moment.

The queen cells are still capped 2 weeks since the cap

Sometimes the bees stick the cap back down again (sometimes even with a worker inside), so they look capped when she has in fact emerged. Also, you might have missed one (very easy to do).

The noise may be coming from this or a bee which does not look like the queen but I think is making a piping noise and doing the action of laying but not actually laying?

If she has just emerged and hasn't yet mated, she may not look quite as large as you would expect. I think that only queens have the equipment to make the toy trumpet noise.

There is a lot of dead bees in the cells in the nuc.

Are they adult bees? Are they head-down in the cells? If so, I think this indicates that they are starving. Did you put any stores in the nuc, or move the hives around to try to get foragers into the nuc? If you didn't, they will have had nurse bees on the frame(s) you put in, but not many foragers (and those that were there will have returned to the original hive site) so the nuc won't have been able to gather food (if there's any flow on where you are).

I would check for stores in the hive and if there are none, feed with a heavy syrup (2lbs of sugar per pint of water).

There is no prescence of eggs in either hive.

If your new queen(s) haven't mated yet, or have only just mated, they won't be laying yet. Our bees have already started getting rid of the drones, so it may be a little late in the year for a successful mating.

Did you leave a known queen in one of the colonies? Is she still there? If she's not, could you have missed a QC and a subsequent swarm from this hive? It is late in the year for a swarm, but we had one colony try it last week.

Also the hives are both a lot louder than usual

Our bees are busy at the moment - it may just be that there are more bees now than you are used to and that they are busy. Also, queenless hives often seem more grumpy than usual.


Good luck. Hopefully an expert will be along shortly, to give proper advice.

 

[daniellejeynes]

I am nothing like an expert, but here are some observations:

Thank you! ok so here goes

If you want confirmation of the sound, search youtube for 'queen piping' and you can hear some examples. I know that someone has posted an audio file of the sound on the forum too, but I can't find it at the moment.

yes I have looked at the videos and the sound is the same but only the very first part, its as tho the second half of the call is missing

Sometimes the bees stick the cap back down again (sometimes even with a worker inside), so they look capped when she has in fact emerged. Also, you might have missed one (very easy to do).

It does actually look like it has been glued back down

If she has just emerged and hasn't yet mated, she may not look quite as large as you would expect. I think that only queens have the equipment to make the toy trumpet noise.

Are they adult bees? Are they head-down in the cells? If so, I think this indicates that they are starving. Did you put any stores in the nuc, or move the hives around to try to get foragers into the nuc? If you didn't, they will have had nurse bees on the frame(s) you put in, but not many foragers (and those that were there will have returned to the original hive site) so the nuc won't have been able to gather food (if there's any flow on where you are).

No there not adult bees, young head out of cell and dead. I did put a frame of stores and there is food left, I will start to feed this week with the sugar syrup. I didnt move t

he hives around, and in terms of foragers there is very little going on.

I would check for stores in the hive and if there are none, feed with a heavy syrup (2lbs of sugar per pint of water).

If your new queen(s) haven't mated yet, or have only just mated, they won't be laying yet. Our bees have already started getting rid of the drones, so it may be a little late in the year for a successful mating.

Lucky I have still got drones in the nuc

Did you leave a known queen in one of the colonies? Is she still there? If she's not, could you have missed a QC and a subsequent swarm from this hive? It is late in the year for a swarm, but we had one colony try it last week.

I havent saw any signs of a queen present for 3 weeks now, but Im sure I have had no swarm, and i do look at all frames so no.

Our bees are busy at the moment - it may just be that there are more bees now than you are used to and that they are busy. Also, queenless hives often seem more grumpy than usual.

Great to know!

Good luck. Hopefully an expert will be along shortly, to give proper advice.

Thank you you've been very helpful, any Ideas of what to do next, cheers

 

[enrico]

You have left it a bit late in the year to make up a nuc from q cells only. You will be running out of drones very quickly. All you can do is wait but to be honest I would cut my losses and combine your nuc with the original hive again having removed the queen cells!!! Splitting your hives in this way is an early year thing really, I would suggest that hatching, mating laying and raising enough bees for winter is going to be a really tight squeeze! Good luck
E

 

[daniellejeynes]

My hive will be Queen less then, mmm would you buy a new queen?
Thanks!

 

[barratt_sab]

No there not adult bees, young head out of cell and dead.

Are they bees, rather than larvae?
What colour are they?
Are they all over the frame, dotted about on the frame or in lines on the frame?
How many are there - entire frames full, some in odd places on a frame, or somewhere in between?




I agree with Enrico, this is quite late in the year to be trying to get a mated queen going.

It seems to me that your priorities are:

1. work out what the brood problem is
If you have a disease problem, you want to find out about it before spending time / money on getting the colony Q+ etc. You could ask a local beekeeper to come and have a look with you, or you could try taking a photo and posting it here.


2. work out how many queens you have
The only sure way is a test frame - can you beg / borrow a frame from someone close by?


3. get a mated queen in the colony
If you are definitely Q-, you can either hope that there are enough good days left to get a queen mated (she may already have mated, you never know) or you can try to acquire a new queen. I would avoid putting a purchased queen into a colony unless you have put a test frame in first. If you are Q+ but have no eggs, you can either wait and see or find the queen, kill her and then requeen.


4. consolidate your bees for the winter
Since you've had a period without brood, I would want to unite the colonies to get a larger number of bees in the colony to prepare for the winter. You also need to be thinking about an autumn varroa treatment and then feeding them up for winter.



I'm still hoping an expert will come and take a look - particularly given your description of the brood problem.

 

[daniellejeynes]

Best let bee!

Thanks again really usefull site, Ok so here are the pics on my blog
I hope these help!
Cheers!

 

[eric]

Thanks again really usefull site, Ok so here are the pics on my blog
I hope these help!
Cheers!

you need to feed them

 

[petersbees]

soon as possible

 

[daniellejeynes]

you need to feed them

There is a frame of honey I put in from my hive, which I haven't shown in the blog, but they don't seem to be taking much of that? The dead adult bees in cells is this why? are they starving? I presumed they would take the frame of honey I had taken from the super from the original colony
Cheers!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Danielle
Don't panic yet. It is a bit late for a queen to mate but not too late - see this thread
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=13233
I'm a beginner myself but I think starving bees will take down syrup over capped honey (they need water to process honey before they can digest it so it's hard work).
There doesn't seem to be many adult bees on the photos of your nuc so maybe some of the dead brood is just chilled from lack of bees.
If you've heard a queen piping she's around somewhere and just needs time to mate.
Remember even if you do put a test frame in, the only positive result is if you get emergency queen cells (then there's definitely no queen) if they don't make QC's there may or may not be a queen present - not my wisdom but someone else on the forum who will probably wade in and put me (and you) right.
Above all don't do anything hasty.
Is there anybody near you (mentor or member of local BKA) who can help.
Emyr
being a new beekeeper is alike being an expert in feelings of panic, relief and despair interspersed with brief moments of deep joy

 

[Mike a]

In terms of piping here is two good examples.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVYYCLJDuqw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVYYCLJDuqw[/ame]

Or the end of this video

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/video.php?do=viewdetails&videoid=122

If it was my colony I would leave them alone to sort it out for themselves but at this time of year I'm not so sure what the best advice would be.

 

[daniellejeynes]

Danielle
Don't panic yet. It is a bit late for a queen to mate but not too late - see this thread
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=13233
I'm a beginner myself but I think starving bees will take down syrup over capped honey (they need water to process honey before they can digest it so it's hard work).
There doesn't seem to be many adult bees on the photos of your nuc so maybe some of the dead brood is just chilled from lack of bees.
If you've heard a queen piping she's around somewhere and just needs time to mate.
Remember even if you do put a test frame in, the only positive result is if you get emergency queen cells (then there's definitely no queen) if they don't make QC's there may or may not be a queen present - not my wisdom but someone else on the forum who will probably wade in and put me (and you) right.
Above all don't do anything hasty.
Is there anybody near you (mentor or member of local BKA) who can help.
Emyr
being a new beekeeper is alike being an expert in feelings of panic, relief and despair interspersed with brief moments of deep joy

Thank you really warming, I have a local mentor he said that we should put the nuc back in the old hive I will let you know how me and my bees get on
Cheers

 

[daniellejeynes]

In terms of piping here is two good examples.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVYYCLJDuqw

Or the end of this video

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/video.php?do=viewdetails&videoid=122

If it was my colony I would leave them alone to sort it out for themselves but at this time of year I'm not so sure what the best advice would be.

Thank you. Further research shows that worker bees do make a noise, if the hive is under threat. As I have mentioned before the piping I hear is just a short sharp sound, alike the first half of a qb piping. I also think that It will possibly be best (safest) to reunite the two colony's and introduce a newly mated queen.
Cheers
Danielle

 

[drstitson]

"Lucky I have still got drones in the nuc"

It's not your drones you need her mated with!!!!!

presume dead brood is due to chilling - how many bees did you stock the nuc with originally?

Re your blog - The pictures of the parent hive back in early august look rather bee sparse too. how many full frames of brood did it have then?

 

[daniellejeynes]

"Lucky I have still got drones in the nuc"

It's not your drones you need her mated with!!!!!

presume dead brood is due to chilling - how many bees did you stock the nuc with originally?

Re your blog - The pictures of the parent hive back in early august look rather bee sparse too. how many full frames of brood did it have then?

Ok, cheers the bees do look as tho they are chilled. I stocked the nuc with 1 brood, 1 store's and the frame with qc. The old hive at the point of the photos only had 2 frames of brood. There has been a few occasions the bees looked as tho they were going to swarm, so perhaps they did, I haven't noticed because since the inspection on the 8th I have not saw any eggs, or the queen

Thank you
Danielle

 

[drstitson]

sounds like both hives are at risk - did you leave any queen cells in the parent hive?

how much brood have you had at the zenith of the parent hive? and how many bees.

i think you've lost a swarm and now have:

queenless parent hive
nuc with virgin awaiting mating.

alternatively are you sure the QCs in blog are queen cells? you may have some new cells made when you made up a queenless nuc - they would be due to hatch now hence the piping.

 

[gavin]

Hi Danielle

The chilling may be because when you split off a nuc many of the bees go back home. You need to keep an eye on this as well as shaking in lots of extra bees at the time (not the queen though), or locking them in for a few days, or moving them somewhere else (>3 miles). Not now, it is too late.

I see on your blog that you are calling one queen cup a queen cell. Queen cups mean nothing - they just make them for fun and there is no intent to swarm until they are starting to raise a grub inside.

The advice to reunite was good, but it may be a bit late now to get the full benefit from that. Still worth it though. Do you need a new queen? I don't know - it is hard to see what is really going on. Can you borrow a frame of eggs? Truly queenless bees will want to raise a new one if they are given eggs or young larvae. If they are not queenless any new queen you try to introduce will be killed.

Here is one possibility. A virgin had already hatched when you made the split. The quacks you heard were between her and the cells left on the frames with living queens inside. That virgin might still be around, could be in either box and is preparing to lay. Is there a clear area of empty cells in the middle with pollen stored around it? If so the workers think that they have a viable queen and you should wait (or do the egg test).

There is a lot to learn ...

Gavin

PS I see that DrStitson was thinking along similar lines.