Advice needed on dealing with 'swarmy' colonies

[fincaazul]

Bees will swarm if they think they do not have enough space.... it must be said that some bees seem to have a greater propensity to swarm than others... even within a subspecies!

Some beekeepers it seems will accept a swarmy nature in exchange for the possibility of a good honey harvest, and will pour unfounded critisism on other beekeepers bees and beekeeping methodology.

My stance is bee improvement by selecting the best bees for my locality... not importing someone else's stock, which may well be the best bee ever for their locality, but most unsuitable for my own.

Experiment with stock types and hive sizes and types... buy locally from a beekeeper who is breeding good bees.... most associations have one!

Enjoy

Yeghes da

sadly bought a shook swarm, six weeks later it swarmed, caught swarm and hived on foundation. Built up well and after six weeks both swarmed again. After two years of them producing nothing but more bees, one colony in poly Langstroth and two frames of bees and brood swarmed. Exceptional forage here, apiary colleague with two colonies on same site took over 300lbs from his two colonies, I want his bees.

 

[Finman]

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As long as you believe that " more room" helps you in swarm control, you have no hope to get things better.

Swarming is sexual reproduction thing, which is in genes. It is nothing space thing.

But it is clear too, if you do not give in time enough room, bees look quickly: Hi! It is swarming time!..

Buy such mated queens, whicv are not bad swarners.

.

 

[kevrhcfag]

sadly bought a shook swarm, six weeks later it swarmed, caught swarm and hived on foundation. Built up well and after six weeks both swarmed again. After two years of them producing nothing but more bees, one colony in poly Langstroth and two frames of bees and brood swarmed. Exceptional forage here, apiary colleague with two colonies on same site took over 300lbs from his two colonies, I want his bees.

At that point should of took the hint and quit while you were behind on the family.

Just need a decent queen.

 

[Finman]

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Two years ago 120% of my hives swarmed. Even some swarms swarmed.

Then I renewed all queens. I bought mated queens from 1500 hive owner.

Nothing local. Local is not a feature what is worth to get.


This year, so far, no queen cells have appeared.
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Secret is that all small apiaries will be ruined genetically in few years, if you do not buy new queens outside of your apiaries.
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Why to breed own queens when somebody has done it for you.
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[Finman]

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You get the worst queens from superceded queens. There is something wrong in mother, when bees want to change the queen. Otherwise you would not rear queens from that colony.

Wrong saving.

 

[Eyeman]

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Two years ago 120% of my hives swarmed. Even some swarms swarmed.

Then I renewed all queens. I bought mated queens from 1500 hive owner.

Nothing local. Local is not a feature what is worth to get.


This year, so far, no queen cells have appeared.
.

Secret is that all small apiaries will be ruined genetically in few years, if you do not buy new queens outside of your apiaries.
.

Why to breed own queens when somebody has done it for you.
.

Half the pleasure of beekeeping is breeding your own queens.
The other half is reading Finman's posts!

 

[Fusion_power]

Swarming is sexual reproduction thing, which is in genes.

You get the worst queens from superceded queens.

I agree with finman on these points. Swarming is highly influenced by genetics. Space can be a trigger, but some bees will swarm regardless of how much space they have.

Supersedure queens in my area are unreliable. The season is long and queen laying has to be sustained 9 or 10 months of the year. If a colony starts supersedure queens prior to the spring flow, they will almost always choose to swarm as soon as the cells are capped. There is a simple way to decide if breeding for supersedure is desirable. If you practice annual requeening, then supersedure queens should always be replaced with queens of selected genetics. If you do not requeen annually, then managing supersedure queens is a necessary part of your business.

 

[Finman]

Half the pleasure of beekeeping is breeding your own queens.
The other half is reading Finman's posts!

To buy queens and rear them are not alternatives.

And nobody ban breed your own two hives. It is stupid but mere pleasure.

.

 

[Finman]

There is a simple way to decide if breeding for supersedure is desirable. If you practice annual requeening, then supersedure queens should always be replaced with queens of selected genetics. If you do not requeen annually, then managing supersedure queens is a necessary part of your business.

I change queens every year and superseduring in my hives is very rare.

But I do not accept supersedured queens. Their production is under average. I have regretted them many times.

 

[Eyeman]

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You get the worst queens from superceded queens. There is something wrong in mother, when bees want to change the queen. Otherwise you would not rear queens from that colony.

Wrong saving.

Where did you get that bit of information from?
I've had colonies that superceded each year rather than produce swarm cells. These were some of my best colonies and still are.
I've 3 colonies who are superceding as we speak, one was previously marked for replacement the other 2 for keeping the queen.
Supercedure queens are well fed and shouldn't be of inferior quality.
If I can delay swarm preparation in some colonies during the spring honey flow then some of these colonies will decide to supercede after the flow is over. Supercedure doesn't always mean a failing queen or indicate the colony insn't worth breeding from.

 

[Fusion_power]

Supercedure doesn't always mean a failing queen or indicate the colony insn't worth breeding from.

Then I invite you to post why Brother Adam said he always replaced supersedure queens. Please read again what I wrote, if you do not requeen annually, then you must be managing supersedure queens. I agree with finman, supersedure queens considered as a group are less productive than queens bred from superior queens and mated to superior drones.

 

[Poly Hive]

Are we to take it that BA's words are inviolate and he was utterly perfect?

I hope not.

Amm likes to sup and some 60% of mine did so on the heather. I had a good honey crop, sometimes when others had little to show. In spring the record cards showed the sup had taken placed as the marked clipped queen was gone and a bonny new queen was in place working away.

I really liked the queens that superceeded and I ran them for at least 2 years and the sup was usually in year 3. Worked very well thank you.

Bear in mind our seasons are VERY different to what can happen in the States.

PH

 

[Finman]

Supercedure doesn't always mean a failing queen or indicate the colony insn't worth breeding from.

You can do what you want. But nothing sense behind it as "breeding".

 

[Finman]

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You may rear what ever rubbish queens of your own , but good heavens, do not buy any.

To buy good queens from professionals is not a fun job at all. And import. Second good heavens.

 

[user 6228]

define swarmy..
do mean a colony swarms multiple times in average year
a colony that swarms once every year
a colony that produces a lot of swarms cells once a year.?

 

[user 6228]

...


Secret is that all small apiaries will be ruined genetically in few years, if you do not buy new queens outside of your apiaries.


...
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I think that statement is only valid for areas that have a low honeybee colony population or a genetically isolated population
not the case in most of the UK

 

[colinc]

Then I invite you to post why Brother Adam said he always replaced supersedure queens. Please read again what I wrote, if you do not requeen annually, then you must be managing supersedure queens. I agree with finman, supersedure queens considered as a group are less productive than queens bred from superior queens and mated to superior drones.

On a forum over represented with hobby keepers, productivity related to an individuals expected production is going to be arbitrary.
If you always choose high cropping queens and replace annually, supercedure seems to be a negative for honey production.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[beeno]

Some people say, early year supersedure is an indication that there is something wrong with the queen. August supersedure is to ensure a young queen to take the colony through winter and in tune with survival theories. So, the operative word for me is timing. My experience of supersedure bears this out in that I have had good late supersedure queens, but more than one attempt at supersedure by the same colony in early supersedure (not talking about the same colonies).
Are there any studies out there on this?

 

[Teemore]

if you do not requeen annually, then you must be managing supersedure queens.....

Quite an assumption to make. Most organised beekeepers will be able to identify supercedure queens in their hives by referring to their colony records and pattern of marking and clipping queens. I would think it more likely that such beekeepers would simply have older queens in their colonies.

I agree with finman, supersedure queens considered as a group are less productive than queens bred from superior queens and mated to superior drones

I have encountered supercedure in a small number of my stocks during 2016 and 2017. Productivity remains satisfactory in those stocks but this is a small sample so I'll not claim it is in any way representative of supercedure as a whole. Your point does highlight the importance of working with good breeding material in the first instance. With good breeding material, supercedure queens broadly come from the same source as queens that the beekeeper has bred. I'll not get into Brother Adam's practices other than to say that received wisdom does not always match experience....

My personal experience is of queens remaining productive in stocks for 3+ years: swarm preparation/swarming is seen in less than 50% of my stocks annually. I understand that commercial beekeepers tend to encounter similar rates of swarming/non swarming. Whilst I do not manage my stocks as intensively as some, my honey yield per colony is fairly good but not yet the average 70kg yield that some forumers get from their stocks. I replace queens where I see colony productivity fall away in comparision to other stocks in the same apiary or where the bees are difficult to work with. In some instances I will retain older, less productive queens to boost drone production, to breed from and simply because I do not have an expectation that "every" colony has to produce a minimum weight of honey.

I will qualify my comments by noting that I am not an intensive beekeeper but I am not really a hobbyist either. I probably fit ROB Manley's definition of an amateur beekeeper rather than a commercial one (at this juncture).

 

[Fusion_power]

With good breeding material, supercedure queens broadly come from the same source as queens that the beekeeper has bred.

But the drones do not. Brother Adam was working with a lot of heterozygosity from crossing diverse races. Had he allowed supersedure queens, there is little doubt they would have underperformed his selected queens mated to selected drones.

I define a "swarmy" colony as any colony that I want to produce honey that throws a swarm instead. In this area, a spring swarm pretty much eliminates any potential for a decent honey crop. I had 3 colonies that swarmed this year. None of the three made enough honey to do much more than subsist I had 2 colonies that attempted to swarm but I pulled nucs out of them which kept the parent colony together. These colonies averaged about 40 kg of honey. I had several colonies that did not swarm and went on to make 70 to 80 kg of honey each. All but two of the colonies that did not swarm required intensive management to prevent swarming. The two colonies that did not swarm and did not require a lot of intervention to prevent swarming are currently being used as breeders.