Advice needed on dealing with 'swarmy' colonies

[Finman]

I think that statement is only valid for areas that have a low honeybee colony population or a genetically isolated population
not the case in most of the UK

You are really wrong. But...
If you are satisfied to village mongrels , you are. To me they are worth nothing.

Biggest problem is, that they are swarmy.
.

 

[Michael Palmer]

Then I invite you to post why Brother Adam said he always replaced supersedure queens. Please read again what I wrote, if you do not requeen annually, then you must be managing supersedure queens. I agree with finman, supersedure queens considered as a group are less productive than queens bred from superior queens and mated to superior drones.

Can't agree. Does every queen raised by you from your superior stock and mated with your superior drones result in a superior queen. Of course not.

 

[Eyeman]

.
You get the worst queens from superceded queens. There is something wrong in mother, when bees want to change the queen. Otherwise you would not rear queens from that colony.

Wrong saving.

You are really wrong. But...
If you are satisfied to village mongrels , you are. To me they are worth nothing.

Biggest problem is, that they are swarmy.
.

Finman's getting cabin fever already! And it's only June

 

[Finman]

Finman's getting cabin fever already! And it's only June

June cabin fever.... Then July cabin fever...

Better to go to capital city to see, what is going there.

 

[Teemore]

Brother Adam had the benefit of isolated mating stations in his work. They are hard to come across in the UK and Ireland but his Dartmoor mating apiary is in good hands and is now being put to good use I believe.
I work to try and flood the areas in which I have apiaries with drones from selected colonies. I am working to build a network of apiaries that ring my "home" apiary. I also try be generous with my time and the queens I am providing to neighbouring beekeepers. I can therefore have some degree of influence over the drones in a given area that are available for queens to mate with. By no means complete control but I am fortunate in that my neighbouring beekeepers select for positive traits in their bees....

I monitor when stocks seek to swarm: like Fusion_power, early swarms would diminish colony yield and make my life too busy when the bees are working the Spring Flow.My stocks generally get into the Summer flow before I have to get my Nuc Boxes ready for swarm management. In terms of swarm management, I have only had to move queens from a couple of stocks into Nucs so far this year.
I also monitor "swarminess" in terms of the number of queen cells colonies produce. Higher numbers of QCs = higher potential number of casts after the prime swarm. If I slip up and a swarm, I would expect the parent colony to do more than subsist. Their yield is usually comparable with an overwintered nuc that was hived onto foundation in the brood box and supers.

 

[foghornleghorn]

Brother Adam had the benefit of isolated mating stations in his work. They are hard to come across in the UK and Ireland but his Dartmoor mating apiary is in good hands and is now being put to good use I believe.
I work to try and flood the areas in which I have apiaries with drones from selected colonies. I am working to build a network of apiaries that ring my "home" apiary. I also try be generous with my time and the queens I am providing to neighbouring beekeepers. I can therefore have some degree of influence over the drones in a given area that are available for queens to mate with. By no means complete control but I am fortunate in that my neighbouring beekeepers select for positive traits in their bees....

I monitor when stocks seek to swarm: like Fusion_power, early swarms would diminish colony yield and make my life too busy when the bees are working the Spring Flow.My stocks generally get into the Summer flow before I have to get my Nuc Boxes ready for swarm management. In terms of swarm management, I have only had to move queens from a couple of stocks into Nucs so far this year.
I also monitor "swarminess" in terms of the number of queen cells colonies produce. Higher numbers of QCs = higher potential number of casts after the prime swarm. If I slip up and a swarm, I would expect the parent colony to do more than subsist. Their yield is usually comparable with an overwintered nuc that was hived onto foundation in the brood box and supers.

Bar getting rid of the very worst bees I doubt much is achievable without proper control of breeding. My bees here aren't swarmy despite no selection by me (or anyone near me) against it and a lot that would favour it (making up nucs with swarm cells and collecting swarms).

 

[Eyeman]

Bar getting rid of the very worst bees I doubt much is achievable without proper control of breeding. My bees here aren't swarmy despite no selection by me (or anyone near me) against it and a lot that would favour it (making up nucs with swarm cells and collecting swarms).

I don't have control over mating but now run many more 3 & 6 frame double nucs where new queens can be assessed before promoting them to honey producers. It's not perfect but my stock is definitely getting better.
I now run 18 honey producers, 27x 3 frame and 22 x 6 frame double nucs,

 

[madasafish]

I don't have control over mating but now run many more 3 & 6 frame double nucs where new queens can be assessed before promoting them to honey producers. It's not perfect but my stock is definitely getting better.
I now run 18 honey producers, 27x 3 frame and 22 x 6 frame double nucs,
View attachment 14488

That sounds like real work..

 

[Fusion_power]

Can't agree. Does every queen raised by you from your superior stock and mated with your superior drones result in a superior queen. Of course not.

I'm nowhere near the level Brother Adam was working at. My bees are mite resistant but swarm more than I like, sometimes don't build up prior to the flow, and have other weaknesses. If I work on them the next 20 years, I might be at the level of amateur queen breeder. Yes, I am critical of my own efforts. If all queen breeders were similarly critical, we might be making some progress with breeding bees for better performance.

Note that I did not say that supersedure queens are bad, just that the beekeeper has two ways to manage bees. Either requeen annually or else know that some number of supersedure queens are in your colonies. It is not wrong to use supersedure queens. It is also not necessarily the best strategy for producing honey.

 

[Finman]

Buy queens from different sellers, and compare what the hives do.
At least you do not get help from this forum.

 

[Michael Palmer]

Note that I did not say that supersedure queens are bad, just that the beekeeper has two ways to manage bees. Either requeen annually or else know that some number of supersedure queens are in your colonies. It is not wrong to use supersedure queens. It is also not necessarily the best strategy for producing honey.

Why would you requeen a colony that has a good queen? I have many colonies headed by 2 and 3, and sometimes 4 year old queens. I have many colonies headed by supercedure queens that go on, year after year, supercede when they need, and produce fine honey crops.

As I said in previous post, is every queen resulting from superior stock a superior queen? Of course not. Further, is every supercedure queen a superior queen? Of course not. But that doesn't mean that every supercedure queen is an inferior queen, or that her colony will be a poor honey producer.

As in any other colony, you inspect, keep good records, and eliminate any substandard queens. That's beekeeping.

 

[Erichalfbee]

As in any other colony, you inspect, keep good records, and eliminate any substandard queens. That's beekeeping.

THAT has to be my new year resolution
It's the eliminate bit that has doubled my colony total, don't want to be eliminating the husband

 

[B+.]

As I said in previous post, is every queen resulting from superior stock a superior queen? Of course not. Further, is every supercedure queen a superior queen? Of course not. But that doesn't mean that every supercedure queen is an inferior queen, or that her colony will be a poor honey producer.

As in any other colony, you inspect, keep good records, and eliminate any substandard queens. That's beekeeping.

I can't submit breeding records for supercedure queens but they are good honey producers/drone mothers. If I have a spare hive, I can generally find a home for a supercedure queen. However, if I need the space for new test stock, she has to go. I would certainly never produce daughter queens from a supercedure queen. That would be against the D.I.B. breeding rules.
I completely agree with you about record keeping. I use a German program called "zucht buch" (http://www.pexa.de/inhalt_dn.htm) but this is only useful if you can follow the German language. I find it incredibly useful. I've asked Gunther Pexa to produce an English version, but, he doesn't think there'd be enough demand for his program to make it worth his while.
On the subject of substandard queens, you are 100% right about this too. Even within sister groups mated to drones from the same mothers on islands (or with instrumental insemination) there is a variation in abilities for different characteristics. Some will be better honey producers, others might be better at varroa control or aggressiveness. That's why I have to test and select the best for further breeding.

 

[madasafish]

I have just inspected by last batch of queens.. All are working laying - but one is runny on the combs.. So a no go as far as I am concerned.


As a hobby beekeeper I have adopted a policy of overproducing Queens for my needs and destroying - or giving away to needy beeks - my rejects..

 

[Beefriendly]

I would certainly never produce daughter queens from a supercedure queen. That would be against the D.I.B. breeding rules.

They aught to change the rules. Queens that never swarm and supersede only would be seen by many beekeepers as ideal....as long as their offspring carry the same trait and are fecund, gentle, productive etc.

 

[Fusion_power]

I have many colonies headed by 2 and 3, and sometimes 4 year old queens.

And therein lies the difference between your climate and mine. Queens lay 9 or 10 months of the year here and wear out sooner. I anxiously look for 2 year old queens with other traits suitable as breeders. They are rare because most queens in one way or another disappear in their 2nd year.

 

[B+.]

They aught to change the rules. Queens that never swarm and supersede only would be seen by many beekeepers as ideal....as long as their offspring carry the same trait and are fecund, gentle, productive etc.

I thought that too for a while. As I learned more about the system, I realized that it is a very well thought-out, rational approach.

I should correct what I said above, I wouldn't want an open mated supercedure queen. A one that was control-mated would be ok - but you would only get a few. The problem we have in this country is the lack of control over the drone population

 

[Beefriendly]

Why not II them as you do with your queens in the breeding program, ideally with drone sperm from similar supercedure colonies?
Why not experiment a bit, live life in the fast lane instead of being told what you are allowed or not allowed to do.
You don't even have to tell them or report it, if you did....call it a side project

 

[B+.]

Why not II them as you do with your queens in the breeding program, ideally with drone sperm from similar supercedure colonies?
Why not experiment a bit, live life in the fast lane instead of being told what you are allowed or not allowed to do.
You don't even have to tell them or report it, if you did....call it a side project

You don't think I experiment? Wow, you don't know me at all!
I experiment a lot. However, there is a huge amount of assessment work that goes with each experiment (otherwise the experiment means nothing) and I only have time for so much testing - i.e. if you didn't gather and analyse the data, the "experiment" is just playing. It serves no useful purpose if you can't draw conclusions and learn from it.

 

[Beefriendly]

Apologies, from your posts it sounded (to me at least) as though the breeding group are telling you what to do and what you can't do.