Adding a super this time of year

[nickyjay]

Hi all, not been on the forum for a few weeks as been on holidays, so I hope you are all well.
When I left the country mid-July, the hive had honey stores. Upon returning the stores had all been used up and was empty so have proceeded to feed syrup. They have now built up some stores again.
My question is that I am on a national brood box and have added no supers this year. The bees are of Italian strain and have completely filled the brood box and all frames are drawn. There is is still a fair amount of new brood coming through. The bees are jam packed in when all at home. Should I add a new super for them to expand into so it is brood and half or shall I maintain the single brood box for this year? I will add that the colony was started in May.
Any advice gratefully received,
Nick

 

[Midland Beek]

You seemed to have spotted the obvious failing of the National hive ... It is too small. Getting bees + brood + adequate stores into a National hive for overwintering is, in many districts and with many strains of bee, just not possible.

 

[Hivemaker.]

You seemed to have spotted the obvious failing of the National hive ... It is too small. Getting bees + brood + adequate stores into a National hive for overwintering is, in many districts and with many strains of bee, just not possible.

Works very well in my district with Buckfasts...but may be a completely impossible in others,even five frame national nucs overwinter well here.

 

[Swarm]

With all brood frames drawn and bees eating themselves out of house and home, it sounds like they could have done with one earlier.

 

[chickendave]

I added supers to three colonies yesterday no QX as they are filling the brood frames with balsom at the moment, it does not matter what time of year it is(disregarding winter) if the bees need the room give it to them

 

[Tim1606]

You seemed to have spotted the obvious failing of the National hive ... It is too small. Getting bees + brood + adequate stores into a National hive for overwintering is, in many districts and with many strains of bee, just not possible.

We run all our hives on double brood and by winter time they are usually on single brood. Have had no problems and will be putting a couple of nucs through the winter this year.

 

[Midland Beek]

We run all our hives on double brood and by winter time they are usually on single brood. Have had no problems and will be putting a couple of nucs through the winter this year.

Assuming a National frame holds 5lb honey/syrup, you need 6 of them to get 30lb food into a hive for overwintering. That leaves only 5 frames for pollen and brood. Bit of a tight squeeze if you ask me.

 

[oliver90owner]

the obvious failing of the National hive

My thoughts were of the alternative - the obvious failings of some of the Italian strains of bee.

Some strains simply do not appear to 'cut their cloth' according to conditions. Brood, brood and brood more, eventually eating themselves out of house and home. Candidates of the bee-world for a Darwin award, methinks.

RAB

 

[drstitson]

"Assuming a National frame holds 5lb honey/syrup, you need 6 of them to get 30lb food into a hive for overwintering. That leaves only 5 frames for pollen and brood. Bit of a tight squeeze if you ask me."

But surely by the time you shut them up for the winter in 3 months time they'll not have much brood left and little need for pollen.

NB: not advocating overwintering on just a nat BB, just stating facts. A full 14x12 or B and Half will provide adequate stores.

 

[northernsoul]

To be honest I think experienced beeks are to be blamed.

When I first thought about keeping bees some years ago, the course ran by my association only talked about having Nationals and naturally that's what I got.

Years later I've got loads of national stuff and every spring build up I wish I would have got another type of hive and not have to mess about with all this brood and a half nonsense.

It would have been helpful if beeks would have said that you could use nationals but you'd spend the rest of your beekeeing life wishing you would have gone for something bigger.

Yes I know I can convert and maybe I could have a big bonfire and buy Dadants but try telling my wife I'm going to buy a load of new hives

Rant Over

 

[madasafish]

My experience as a newcomer to beekeeping is that English beekeeping is a craft stuck in the mid 20th century and fiercely resisting any change not forced upon it (eg OMF by varroa).

The failure to adopt poly hives, the multiple of unsuitable formats and the out of date literature (HB never mentioned).. are what I base the above...

 

[Poly Hive]

Simple answer, sell your nats with bees in spring and from the income buy something you prefer. Personally I would buy poly Lang.

PH

 

[oliver90owner]

northernsoul,

To be honest I think experienced beeks are to be blamed.

Please don't tar all experienced beeks with the same brush! The small word 'some' or perhaps adding in the larger word like 'parochial' would have been much more acceptable - to those who do not tell you what to actually do. You do have a choice!!

Unfortunately 'some years ago' there were not that many alternative formats in local regular use; those that ran courses were, perhaps, not so well versed in the other formats, and the courses were based on what they knew locally.

That said, the obvious choice is adding a 90mm eke and going 14 x 12. Cheap, uses most of the National stuff and not have the aggravation of a brood and a half on every(?) colony all(?) summer. Your choice of course! I changed after a couple of years (from National deeps and WBCs). I already knew there were alternatives (nearly all books mentioned Langstroths per eg).

So my advice is to stop ranting and start thinking. No bonfire needed, just some kindling generated from the deep frames. A tenner to by new frames and very little to make an eke. Five colonies to change over, so over a couple of years, or so, the job could be done without scrapping any good comb - sooner if you get into gear and get sorted out, ready for a few shook swarms in the spring.

Just my thoughts on your post.

Regards, RAB

 

[northernsoul]

oliver90owner
Apologies of course to all beekeepers I have offended, thanks for pointing this out and thanks for the advice.

 

[user 3204]

FWIW - I run some nationals and always go into winter with one super over BB for stores and room for the Bees (No QX). If they don't fill the super for themselves then I do. If they need room and or the stores then they've got it and they'll over Winter better too!

So yes NickJay, get one on.

 

[Winker]

if i were to add a super for the sake of giving the bees room over winter for stores. Do i have to take the QE out? I would rather not give the Queen room to expand her brood to brood and a half

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

if i were to add a super for the sake of giving the bees room over winter for stores. Do i have to take the QE out? I would rather not give the Queen room to expand her brood to brood and a half

The QE must be out before you shut down for winter or she can get isolated. For now though you can leave it in

 

[oliver90owner]

Do i have to take the QE out?

Yes, remove it. Never leave a Q/E, potentially separating queen from cluster, during the winter.

I don't advocate it, but some put the super below the brood, presumably so they hope to get it away in the spring before she lays down there. I leave the honey in the natural place - over the brood nest.

Regards, RAB

 

[BBG]

"My experience as a newcomer to beekeeping is that English beekeeping is a craft stuck in the mid 20th century and fiercely resisting any change not forced upon it (eg OMF by varroa).

The failure to adopt poly hives, the multiple of unsuitable formats and the out of date literature (HB never mentioned).. are what I base the above..."

Certainly can't disagree with that.

For one, the OMF and its misuse almost makes me weep for the suffering it sometimes causes the bees and that's after MAFF bringing it in 20 years ago.

This lack of progress is passed on to new beeks who have paid to be taught, innocently believe the statement "I've been doing it for ??? years" makes an expert, to be followed blindly. Understandable when students have little time after family, gardening, work etc.

Simple answer, sell your nats with bees in spring and from the income buy something you prefer. Personally I would buy poly Lang.
PH

This time I bought all Langstroth and all polystyrene with Open Mesh Floors.

Had the benefit of using WBC 30 years ago hence saw the sense of Langstroth but there was great pressure, almost acrimonious, from my association for me to use National.

 

[tonybloke]

of course another alternative is to use a 'hamilton converter' and run with 16 x 10 frames.