2 frame nucs for national frames.

[Matty Brown]

Hi,

Next year I am going to try queen rearing for the first time. I have decided to use 2 frame nucs with national frames as the mating boxes.
I will be making about 20 of these in the coming weeks.
Any advice and tips on building these?
What would you use as a feeder?
Would you make these from plywood or timber?
What would you use as the roof? felt or galvanised sheeting? It will only be used in the summer.

Thanks in advance to any tips and advice.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Hi,

Next year I am going to try queen rearing for the first time. I have decided to use 2 frame nucs with national frames as the mating boxes.
I will be making about 20 of these in the coming weeks.
Any advice and tips on building these?
What would you use as a feeder?
Would you make these from plywood or timber?
What would you use as the roof? felt or galvanised sheeting? It will only be used in the summer.

Thanks in advance to any tips and advice.

Personally I would use 3 frame nucs and I would use something like this for the roof covering.
https://www.screwfix.com/c/building-doors/damp-proof-courses/cat850234

 

[Matty Brown]

Personally I would use 3 frame nucs and I would use something like this for the roof covering.
https://www.screwfix.com/c/building-doors/damp-proof-courses/cat850234

Any reason why you would prefer a 3-frame nuc for queen mating?
What would you use as a feeder?
I looked into using a 3-frame nuc with 2 frames of foundation and 1 frame feeder.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Roger Patterson's Two-Frame Nucleus: a very useful item in any apiary will help, Matt. You'll see that although the ingredients are 2f of bees, brood & food, Roger uses 5f boxes and 3f of comb to allow for expansion. The 2f could get rammed quite quickly, and to then transfer into 5f means you must have two sizes of box and so twice the work.

Plywood is good enough for summer; seal the edges well; cover your roofs with felt or something like pond liner; Beehive Bits will make you galv roofs to size but their metal is thin.

Cost the materials and labour to search, source, fetch, fiddle, build, make tea & mistakes and fiddle some more; decide then whether a BS twinstock 3f box would save, last longer, give better thermal efficiency and a longer season.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Any reason why you would prefer a 3-frame nuc for queen mating?
What would you use as a feeder?
I looked into using a 3-frame nuc with 2 frames of foundation and 1 frame feeder.

As Eric says 2 frame nucs grow too quickly so that extra frame would give you a bit of extra time. Personally I use 5 frame nucs as Eric suggests because they are much more versatile.
I don't think Beehive bits do roofs anymore.

 

[Matty Brown]

As Eric says 2 frame nucs grow too quickly so that extra frame would give you a bit of extra time. Personally I use 5 frame nucs as Eric suggests because they are much more versatile.

I would be using the 2-frame nuc the same as an apidea. I just give 2 frames with a starter strip of foundation add some bees and a few days later add a queen cell.
I am just not sure what to do for a feeder?

 

[Newbeeneil]

I would be using the 2-frame nuc the same as an apidea. I just give 2 frames with a starter strip of foundation add some bees and a few days later add a queen cell.
I am just not sure what to do for a feeder?

I either use fondant above the crownboard or a lb jar with small holes in the lid inverted over the crownboard hole.

 

[Matty Brown]

Would you make a eke for the jar to sit in? Or have no roof just a crown board with a hole for the jar feeder?

I either use fondant above the crownboard or a lb jar with small holes in the lid inverted over the crownboard hole.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Would you make a eke for the jar to sit in? Or have no roof just a crown board with a hole for the jar feeder?

All my crownboards have a 50mm upstand so I can put insulation on when required or reverse to treat varroa (Apiguard or Apivar Life) so feeding fondant is easy. If feeding with a jar I bore out a jar diameter hole in the insulation to support the inverted jar.

 

[Curly green finger's]

I like using split 6 frame nucs (2 x 3 frame) and single brood national split into two six frame nucs .
If you can start your first round of with virgins I’ve learned my lesson over the last two/three seasons .

Feeding either over cb hole or feeders above poly nucs ( fondant)

I plan to use some split super boxes this year with a few mini nucs which will are half size super frames after some tips from @rolande

I like the idea of wintering queens in supers above colony’s .

 

[Matty Brown]

All my crownboards have a 50mm upstand so I can put insulation on when required or reverse to treat varroa (Apiguard or Apivar Life) so feeding fondant is easy. If feeding with a jar I bore out a jar diameter hole in the insulation to support the inverted jar.

Would it work to feed fondant in summer?

 

[Newbeeneil]

Would it work to feed fondant in summer?

It's all food to bees.

 

[Parsonage Bees]

I got the measurements slightly wrong when I made nucs so getting frames in and out is tight. You could look at buying flat pack Nationals and cutting them up. The major dimensions are then right. Cutting the rebates and locking bars at top and bottom are a complication you don't have with Langstroth boxes. Good hand holds but a pain to make.
Use of table saw will help.
To make 3 x 3 frame nucs you could buy a second quality National box and cut 4 more flat rectangular sides out of ply. Or even look into buying 4 extra sides which will have the mortices cut at the corners.

I've used a thin plywood open box sealed with beeswax as a frame type feeder for syrup. Put straw or twigs in it to stop them drowning. Or buy frame feeders.

 

[Eyeman]

I would be using the 2-frame nuc the same as an apidea. I just give 2 frames with a starter strip of foundation add some bees and a few days later add a queen cell.
I am just not sure what to do for a feeder?

The reason apideas work is they are the right size & environment for the number of bees. Are you planning on adding the same number of bees into your 2 frame nuc? Are your frames not going to have bees/brood/stores?

 

[Eyeman]

I’ve dug out some pics from a talk I used to give. Some things I found helpful re 3 frame nucs:
1. As someone said cut up brood boxes- they used to be cheap as seconds in winter sales, or buy used at auctions.
2. I’ve used 18mm ply as sides, treated with diluted PVA then masonry paint. Still going 20 yrs later with some tlc.
3. 3 of my 3 frame nucs fit the national hive footprint so will push together so it fits on a varroa monitoring board & under a roof
4. If you divide the national into 4 then each nuc will fit 2 Hoffmann & one DN1 or DN2 frame.
5, used to double or triple stack them
6. Now during the season I use them to introduce mated queens adding 1 frame of brood/stores/bees & one drawn frame & a foundation frame. Good when resources are limited.
7. End of season use is to overwinter mated queens. I also overwinter double 5 frame nucs & sell half the double in spring & I use these small 3 frame colonies to restock the queenless part of my 5 frame nuc. These doubles are ready to sell off half the nuc again in a month or so by which time my spring reared queens are ready. Well that’s the theory.

 

[sipa]

Two frame national nucs work well as long as you are on top of the timings, once a queen starts laying it will run out of room rapidly. Same applies to Apidea and the like, timing is everything and management has to be spot on to avoid disasters.
It seems you are preparing to take on an awfull lot of challenges with quite limited experience, for that reason I'd recommend you use five or six frame nucs to start with, gives you time and flexibilty to expand your numbers without a lot of extra managent.

 

[James Parke]

I’ve dug out some pics from a talk I used to give. Some things I found helpful re 3 frame nucs:
1. As someone said cut up brood boxes- they used to be cheap as seconds in winter sales, or buy used at auctions.
2. I’ve used 18mm ply as sides, treated with diluted PVA then masonry paint. Still going 20 yrs later with some tlc.
3. 3 of my 3 frame nucs fit the national hive footprint so will push together so it fits on a varroa monitoring board & under a roof
4. If you divide the national into 4 then each nuc will fit 2 Hoffmann & one DN1 or DN2 frame.
5, used to double or triple stack them
6. Now during the season I use them to introduce mated queens adding 1 frame of brood/stores/bees & one drawn frame & a foundation frame. Good when resources are limited.
7. End of season use is to overwinter mated queens. I also overwinter double 5 frame nucs & sell half the double in spring & I use these small 3 frame colonies to restock the queenless part of my 5 frame nuc. These doubles are ready to sell off half the nuc again in a month or so by which time my spring reared queens are ready. Well that’s the theory.

Some great info and pictures there Eyeman. Thanks for sharing. Do you cut the boxes into nucs after you make up a full BB? Table saw?

James

 

[Eyeman]

Some great info and pictures there Eyeman. Thanks for sharing. Do you cut the boxes into nucs after you make up a full BB? Table saw?

James

Hi James. You’re spot on. In the old days when cedar brood boxes were cheap in the sales I bought a couple of dozen. Made them up & as you said table saw to cut to size & 18mm ply to the side. Same goes for 5 frame nucs- must have 50+.