What is happening to our queens

drex · Apr 15, 2020

For the last few years Roger Patterson has been talking about unexplained queen problems. I had not experienced this until now. Had my first proper look in my one out lying hive today, which is at my friends animal sanctuary. I had a quick look to check stores about six weeks ago and was a fair amount of brood then. However today there were no eggs larvae or pupae. Still plenty of good tempered bees and no torn down queen cells. The queen just seems to have disappeared. I lost all my over wintered nucs ( about 7 of them) containing last years new queens in a similar manner.

I could see no drones at all in today's hive. There might be a virgin in there and tomorrow I will take them a test frame, but I do not think so. Thank heaven my main colonies were all ok last week, even if a few were a bit weak.

Not a good start to my season

enrico · Apr 15, 2020

A couple of years ago I lost three queen's at this time of the year all at the same time. But honestly, I think it was coincidence. Why would it happen in one year and not another. I think when you get a stroke of bad luck like that you look for any excuse!
E

Ian123 · Apr 15, 2020

Failed queens have been an issue long before varroa and even Roger himself, roughly were all your nucs made up from the same batch.? The answers to I would suggest slightly higher Queen losses are out there, am surprised Rogers taken so long. Plenty of research and papers google and ye will find!

Poly Hive · Apr 15, 2020

I had a terrible year for weather last year and I was very late in getting a queen rearing window. The queens got the weather for their start and hatching then the heavens opened again. I have lost every one of those queens apart from one I think it is. Weird and odd things going on.......is it crap, it's called the Scottish monsoon. Nothing unusual at all, don't make it any more palatable but at least I am honest and not grabbing at excuses.

PH

drex · Apr 15, 2020

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/queenperformanceproblems.html

I accept that my beekeeping may have caused problems. However, why would a living entity, which would do its best to survive and propagate the species, just turn up its toes and appear to commit suicide, there being no evidence of gradual failure or attempts to raise emergency queens.?

The Poot in Somerset · Apr 15, 2020

I don't think Drex is looking for excuses rather seeking opinions on queen issues. There are many very seasoned bee keepers that feel there is something causing queens to fail prematurely.

Newbeeneil · Apr 15, 2020

I lost two queens like that this year. Roger has been banging the drum for over 20 years if he's to be believed.

jenkinsbrynmair · Apr 15, 2020

Went to a talk at the BBKA spring convention about queen problems a few years ago. Ten minutes in and all the person at the podium muttered about was how his nephew had come home after a long absence and was now wearing a cocktail dress and wanted to be known as Fiona, the rest of the talk was all just chummy blather between a few of the knowitalls who'd turned up to prove how clever they were (they failed miserably, and not for the first time

) only thing of benefit I came away with was the whisper leaked out by the manufacturers of MAQS that they'd got the doses wrong and 50% was ample for Nationals - but they couldn't announce it publicly as it would have been in breach of their licence!

Swarm · Apr 15, 2020

And why not? For those of us who think a species/sub species that is not in danger of extinction and perfectly capable of mating naturally, to see an unexplained decline in queen performance compared with those from years/decades ago, is a matter of concern. The problem is more than likely man made and I certainly don't think the answer lies in man made bees.
I don't agree with synthetic or imported bees.
I sympathise with drex and understand how he feels.The weather might explain some but the weather doesn't meddle with the gene pool every year.

jenkinsbrynmair · Apr 15, 2020

Swarm said:
And why not? For those of us who think a species/sub species that is not in danger of extinction and perfectly capable of mating naturally, to see an unexplained decline in queen performance compared with those from years/decades ago, is a matter of concern.

I put it down to the shook swarm obsessives and the leavitaloners who think that constant drone culling and dredging with sugar is the solution to varroa.

B+. · Apr 15, 2020

Not for the first time, I'm going to say something contentious.

The vast majority of beekeepers pay absolutely no attention to drone rearing. It's as though they are someone elses responsibility or that they come free. The truth is that drones need every bit as much care and nurturing as virgin queens

When you want to rear queen cells, you set up a queenless nuc with lots of nurse bees, pollen, fresh nectar and you'll probably do it when it's forecast to be nice and warm. Strangely, these are the same conditions that drones need -except they need 24 days in the cell instead of a virgin queens 16. They are very fragile creatures. If anything goes wrong, the older drones will be sacrificed in favour of the younger ones.
Even when they emerge, drones still need to develop. They spend a whole week feeding and growing stronger - so the hive should contain lots of young nurse bees to feed and care for them.
They will start to take flights but are not ready to mate - if you see drones of different ages on a comb, the ones that are ready are MUCH bigger - almost twice the size of a newly emerged drone.

I put a lot of effort into rearing a plentiful supply of drones from specific queens so they are unrelated to the virgin queens (https://twitter.com/i/status/1130128276876406787 ). Any with dwv would be useless too - that's why strong, healthy colonies are important.

Murox · Apr 15, 2020

B+. said:
Not for the first time, I'm going to say something contentious.

The vast majority of beekeepers pay absolutely no attention to drone rearing. It's as though they are someone elses responsibility or that they come free. The truth is that drones need every bit as much care and nurturing as virgin queens

When you want to rear queen cells, you set up a queenless nuc with lots of nurse bees, pollen, fresh nectar and you'll probably do it when it's forecast to be nice and warm. Strangely, these are the same conditions that drones need -except they need 24 days in the cell instead of a virgin queens 16. They are very fragile creatures. If anything goes wrong, the older drones will be sacrificed in favour of the younger ones.
Even when they emerge, drones still need to develop. They spend a whole week feeding and growing stronger - so the hive should contain lots of young nurse bees to feed and care for them.
They will start to take flights but are not ready to mate - if you see drones of different ages on a comb, the ones that are ready are MUCH bigger - almost twice the size of a newly emerged drone.

I put a lot of effort into rearing a plentiful supply of drones from specific queens so they are unrelated to the virgin queens (https://twitter.com/i/status/1130128276876406787 ). Any with dwv would be useless too - that's why strong, healthy colonies are important.

I don't think pointing out the equal importance of the male line is at all contentious, all caring breeders of most creatures would take that as a 'given'.

Swarm · Apr 15, 2020

jenkinsbrynmair said:
I put it down to the shook swarm obsessives and the leavitaloners who think that constant drone culling and dredging with sugar is the solution to varroa.

Thanks for reminding me. The drone cullers should be forced to run foundationless hives.

B+. · Apr 15, 2020

Murox said:
I don't think pointing out the equal importance of the male line is at all contentious, all caring breeders of most creatures would take that as a 'given'.

I agree...but...why is it that beekeepers pay so little attention to drones?

Swarm · Apr 15, 2020

Because they buy in queens, drones are irrelevant?

Murox · Apr 15, 2020

B+. said:
I agree...but...why is it that beekeepers pay so little attention to drones?

Its the same in other spheres. We breed 'a rare dog breed', and we utilise tests and breeding values and access a very large international database - the vast majority, especially in the uk I notice, do not. Many just mate with "the dog down the road" only with the intention of multiplying numbers, not with betterment or conservation in mind.

I think there may be a fear/misunderstanding that if genetic selection focuses only on increasing production of honey for example, (i.e one thing.) there is a risk of increasing problems related to high production levels. A wider perspective that encompasses both production and other traits, even though they may not be a primary breeding goal of the selection scheme needs to be made plain and may help. Who knows ?

ericbeaumont · Apr 15, 2020

jenkinsbrynmair said:
Went to a talk at the BBKA spring convention about queen problems a few years ago

Was that the debate between Roger Patterson and Clive de Bruyn? Roger's suggestion that something unusual was happening with queens was defeated by Clive's view that the UK climate was to blame historically for poor queens, and as PH said, nothing unusual in that. I thought at the time that the straightforward explanation was more palatable to the audience than the one difficult to prove.

For want of a better word · Apr 16, 2020

Swarm said:
Because they buy in queens, drones are irrelevant?

And "drones eat lots of honey, do not make any and take up space for honey producing workers in the hive".... actually heard this at a lecture given by a "Master Beekeeper"

bingevader · Apr 16, 2020

B+. said:
I agree...but...why is it that beekeepers pay so little attention to drones?

Because drones have been regarded as the spawn of Satan, their only purpose to eat honey and harbour disease, with little regard to their importance to the gene pool.
It's only relatively recently that it has been acknowledged (even if widely reported) that drones are of great importance to the general well being of a colony, let alone just for reproductive purposes.
Beekeeping is a very slow ocean tanker, any change in movement takes a loooong time.

Poly Hive · Apr 16, 2020

More droens

I was asked yesterday about a photo seemingly showing mating sign on a queen taken yesterday . It was a very poor pic and being no expert on mating sign I said I doubted it and were there actually any sexually mature drones here at this time of year. Note please we are discussing the Scottish Borders which are a good four weeks later than say Cornwall and Kent.

The person contended that there were overwintered ones capable of performing. I thought that unlikely and said so. Then the worm of doubt arrived and chewed at me overnight.

Is there any evidence that this may be possible?

PH

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