Your thoughts on this breeder.

[mbc]

One man with a passion who outperforms BIBBA and all the other 'groups' in the UK put together when it come to supplying AMM. They could all learn a lot from him.

Yes, I agree.
Interestingly the original stock might have partly come from the galtee breeding group but they're open mated further north in quite a populous area of the emerald isle and many generations down the line subsequent testing has proved they're still pure Amm (>95%). Obviously a predominantly native drone population in the area.
Hats off to the man in question, a very knowledgeable and industrious beekeeper.

 

[mbc]

Rubbish
BIBBA does not supply queens ... but some of the BIBBA members do

How can it be rubbish when it's patently true?
Ie. If you want a British isles bred Amm queen bibba are no help whereas Jon's website let's you order one very simply.

 

[madasafish]

According to the latest figures I can find there is somewhere around 45/50 thousand beekeepers in the U.K. and the BBKA professes to represent 25 thousand.

BBKA voting members @ 1/1/2020 per BBKA 26,799

Is our climate not changing getting warmer seasons are lasting longer?

I live in the real world madasafish.
Where do you get your data to come up with the figures.
How many Beekeepers are not members of the bbka.?

Why cant the younger generation be hopefull and look into the future.
Equipment and stock could be donated as I said if we as beekeepers were more on the same level why can't queen rearing in this country be souly our own.

Mark

Warmer yes: but if it rains nearly every day for weeks after June, (which happened with us this year) you can raise hundreds of queens but getting them properly mated is a different thing.
My success rate was 50% - getting raised queens to mate.

BBKA numbers above.

If someone is not a member of any Association or Bee Club, it is unlikely they will form a group with others to do anything. (in my view).

Of course we should try: just look at what BIBBA have achieved over 50 years. One N Irish beekeeper does more than all the rest put together. I don't think he is a Bibba member?)

 

[rolande]

Of course we should try: just look at what BIBBA have achieved over 50 years. One N Irish beekeeper does more than all the rest put together. I don't think he is a Bibba member?)

When I was a BIBBA member in the mid 90s they seemed quite keen on organized breeding with the ultimate aim of further distribution (or maybe I just miss understood the goals). They also did some great work translating Ruttner's selection book and getting other publications out. But 20+ years later your post is spot on.

 

[Curly green finger's]

I don't think it's a bone of contention at all, quite comprehensive work has been published on Irish native honey bee stocks and it's pretty conclusive that they're the real deal, sure there's some introgression from imports, I don't know of any populations worldwide that are unsullied in that way.

My mentor is from western Ireland originally and he has said that queen's off Amm type are pretty much as good as they get there.
He has told me story's of beekeepers travelling from the UK to Ireland and leaving with queen's in there pockets in years past.
It's a shame we can only get queen's from Northern Ireland these days.

 

[Curly green finger's]

BBKA voting members @ 1/1/2020 per BBKA 26,799





Mark

Warmer yes: but if it rains nearly every day for weeks after June, (which happened with us this year) you can raise hundreds of queens but getting them properly mated is a different thing.
My success rate was 50% - getting raised queens to mate.

BBKA numbers above.

If someone is not a member of any Association or Bee Club, it is unlikely they will form a group with others to do anything. (in my view).

Of course we should try: just look at what BIBBA have achieved over 50 years. One N Irish beekeeper does more than all the rest put together. I don't think he is a Bibba member?)

I whole heartedly agree with you weather plays such a big part in queen's getting mated as does nectar flow. Wasp problems ( which we are lucky to not have) and even swift and swallow aren't a problem.
This spring for me has been the best I've known since I've started queen rearing, it has taken me three seasons to get a grasp on the way I've reared queen's. Through trial and era I'm slowly getting there.
This next season I want to produce queen's to a better time scale and hopefully more queen's to boot using a different method.
It may take the next 10 years to achieve where I want to be but.

 

[Curly green finger's]

How can it be rubbish when it's patently true?
Ie. If you want a British isles bred Amm queen bibba are no help whereas Jon's website let's you order one very simply.

You even get a deal when you order more

 

[Apple]

Someone seems to be missing the point.
IF the UK bans imports of bees that will as things are include the bees bred in Ulster ( Northern Ireland bit of United Kingdom of Great Britain and...) as it is or will be behind the Euro Curtain.

Point is that the beekeepers in the UK need to step up to the mark and start bee improvement and bee(queen) breeding.
Join BIBBA and get on one of their excellent queen rearing courses... and start doing it... not difficult.

(BBKA also have a module on rearing bees but as far as I can see they have never gone out to do any habds on teaching of queen rearing or bee improvement etc... just carry adverts for overseas producers that have preesumeably have to be imported?)

 

[madasafish]

Someone seems to be missing the point.
IF the UK bans imports of bees that will as things are include the bees bred in Ulster ( Northern Ireland bit of United Kingdom of Great Britain and...) as it is or will be behind the Euro Curtain.

Point is that the beekeepers in the UK need to step up to the mark and start bee improvement and bee(queen) breeding.
Join BIBBA and get on one of their excellent queen rearing courses... and start doing it... not difficult.

(BBKA also have a module on rearing bees but as far as I can see they have never gone out to do any habds on teaching of queen rearing or bee improvement etc... just carry adverts for overseas producers that have preesumeably have to be imported?)

Having been rude about Bibba. I have attended one of their QR courses and watched their vidoes.
They are very good.

The BBKA pamphlet on Queen Rearing is excellent.

I had to smile at this month's (December) BBKA Magazine .
In the Classified Directory on page 425 there is the BBKA note on discouraging imported bees.
Right next to it is an advert for Beckys Bees. Who of course advertise for sale on their website ImportedQueens from : Germany, Romania and elsewhere...

 

[Apple]

Having been rude about Bibba. I have attended one of their QR courses and watched their vidoes.
They are very good.

The BBKA pamphlet on Queen Rearing is excellent.

I had to smile at this month's (December) BBKA Magazine .
In the Classified Directory on page 425Ther is the BBKA note on discouraging imported bees.
Right next to it is an advert for Beckys Bees. Who of course advertise for sale on their website ImportedQueens from : Germany, Romania and elsewhere...

"The BBKA pamphlet on Queen Rearing is excellent."

Yes indeed and there are so many books on queen rearing that I have had to put an extra bracket under the bookshelf to take the weight of all the tomes.. the bbka sheet is a good example of cut and paste from all the best bits ( I think the WBKA did similar?)
BUT... there is nothing like hands on experience delivered and mentored by an experienced breeder
The BIBBA courses are the bees knees... hopefull they will be running many next season Covid allowing!
Nadelik Lowen

 

[ericbeaumont]

someone who is basically a successful hobbyist.

Aren't all bee farmers?

The easiest of the options available would be a letter of support from a BFA member and proof of BeeBase registration. As WB said, 40 is no longer the yardstick, and anyway you exceed that and work professionally.

1) A concise description of the nature and scope of your current activities.
2) Two pieces of documentary evidence as available (electronic copy). For example:
*a letter of support from a current BFA member, sector professional or professional adviser
*business plan
*company registration details
*VAT registration details
*contract of employment or payslip
*annual accounts
*business bank account statement
*evidence of registration with relevant authorities (eg, environmental health, National Bee Unit)
*certificate of relevant qualification (eg, bee farming apprenticeship)
other form(s) of evidence as available - the list above is neither exhaustive nor prescriptive.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Thanks Eric,
I will apply this year as I have more of the relevant paperwork available but when you read the aims etc of BFA I get the feeling they aren't really interested in a small guy with a few hives and who makes most of his income from maintaining the hives of the wealthy who don't want to get their hands dirty or stung!
But we shall see when I get the paperwork sorted.
Thanks to all that have commented on my post.

 

[Polymorph]

My understanding from BIBBA is around them backing local bees with their adaptations. Which is a reason why they do not provide queens that may not thrive in your locality. So an encouragement for Beekeepers to help themselves through improving their own existing stock. Hopefully with a few.
others in the locality.
Like others I've tried BSHoneybees, though I had both supercede within six months, which I thought was an isolated experience. One successfully superseded but the next gen were REALLY angry, the other didn't manage to rear a replacement and I needed to find another at short notice. I'm now hoping to rear my own next year.

Cheers Tim

 

[Apple]

My understanding from BIBBA is around them backing local bees with their adaptations. Which is a reason why they do not provide queens that may not thrive in your locality. So an encouragement for Beekeepers to help themselves through improving their own existing stock. Hopefully with a few.
others in the locality.
Like others I've tried BSHoneybees, though I had both supercede within six months, which I thought was an isolated experience. One successfully superseded but the next gen were REALLY angry, the other didn't manage to rear a replacement and I needed to find another at short notice. I'm now hoping to rear my own next year.

Cheers Tim

Good luck Tim... I hope you are successful with your bee breeding... we NEED 100s more like you!
Nadelik Lowen

 

[Swn58]

It's a complicated business. About five years ago I started looking into breeding queens in a more organised way, increasing my stock etc.. I was also looking at honey imports and the effect it had on pricing in this country and the domino effect it had on any commercial operations here at that time. I also touched on the commercial queen rearing in Italy, Slovenia etc.. The conclusion I came to at that time was that any large scale beekeeping operation in the UK was fraught with problems. There was the weather, cheap imports, costs, to name but a few! I decided that my 'pipe-dream' of starting a bee keeping business would stay just that.
Three years ago I did a business course, using beekeeping as a model. I had also left my previous employment and was free to 'go with the flow' as an almost unemployable individual. (Over 60 with a 'dicky ticker') One may argue that this was now a 'crack-pipe dream!' However things were about to change and indeed were changing. The major factor being Brexit.
I realised that the importation of queens from all over the EU may slow down considerably. For the first year it will be a purely physical thing, as there will be great hold ups in importing everything! Two years ago, I asked BS Honeybees about buying new bees from them. They are big importers of queens. Talk about a depressing reply. Apparently, they could guarantee nothing and were considering moving to France! So, I might have been thinking on the right lines?
The second problem could involve import duties that were waived when we were in the 'club' and general greater expense incurred. I'm not sure how the withdrawal of the EU Agricultural Policy will impact. However, on the news the other day, the Government (bless'em) were saying that farmers would no longer get extra funds for growing crops, but would be paid extra to create 'natural reserves' on their land. Conclusion......it's all up for grabs!
Last year, I brought in ten nukes of British bred bees, documented on here. I set up a third apiary in Warwickshire, where I hope to expand them greatly. The optimist in me now says that this is the time to seize the chance to make bee-farming and honey production in this country a force to be reckoned with?

 

[Apple]

SWN all I

It's a complicated business. About five years ago I started looking into breeding queens in a more organised way, increasing my stock etc.. I was also looking at honey imports and the effect it had on pricing in this country and the domino effect it had on any commercial operations here at that time. I also touched on the commercial queen rearing in Italy, Slovenia etc.. The conclusion I came to at that time was that any large scale beekeeping operation in the UK was fraught with problems. There was the weather, cheap imports, costs, to name but a few! I decided that my 'pipe-dream' of starting a bee keeping business would stay just that.
Three years ago I did a business course, using beekeeping as a model. I had also left my previous employment and was free to 'go with the flow' as an almost unemployable individual. (Over 60 with a 'dicky ticker') One may argue that this was now a 'crack-pipe dream!' However things were about to change and indeed were changing. The major factor being Brexit.
I realised that the importation of queens from all over the EU may slow down considerably. For the first year it will be a purely physical thing, as there will be great hold ups in importing everything! Two years ago, I asked BS Honeybees about buying new bees from them. They are big importers of queens. Talk about a depressing reply. Apparently, they could guarantee nothing and were considering moving to France! So, I might have been thinking on the right lines?
The second problem could involve import duties that were waived when we were in the 'club' and general greater expense incurred. I'm not sure how the withdrawal of the EU Agricultural Policy will impact. However, on the news the other day, the Government (bless'em) were saying that farmers would no longer get extra funds for growing crops, but would be paid extra to create 'natural reserves' on their land. Conclusion......it's all up for grabs!
Last year, I brought in ten nukes of British bred bees, documented on here. I set up a third apiary in Warwickshire, where I hope to expand them greatly. The optimist in me now says that this is the time to seize the chance to make bee-farming and honey production in this country a force to be reckoned with?

can say is "GO FOR IT"
There is a future for Beefarming in the UK and the ban on imports will most certainly hit the hobby market and those who import bees to sell into it..... very hard.
Good luck to them I say!
My business plan included building in time and equipment to produce enough new colonies and queens to replenish losses and allow for some expansion. Last season I produced a couple of hundred queens from selection and grafting.. I actually only sold half a dozen and gave a few away.... some got eaten by swallows...
It is a lot like planting seeds and pricking out... not all survive to give you show winning veggies!
39 are overwintering in Paynes double dekker nucs, 25 went up to single brood boxes in late summer and even though last season was disappointing I have also managed to expand, although I have not reached my target of 10 colonies in each apiary.... we just seem not to have the forage for megga 100 colony apiaries!

Covid has forced an overview of our marketing strategy, County shows which although very expensive to sell at and difficult to get invited to, were our major outlet.. these have been mostly cancelled leaving a massive hole in our budget to fill, however our website got re designed by a professional and now our online sales are moderately impressive.
I have looked for new markets as selling honey in bulk to the packers only makes their shareholders a profit, I have spent most of my life working my fingers to the bone for the banks, and only got left with bony fingers!
The bulk price offered by most of the packers for English honey is a total disgrace and I wonder how on Earth some beefarmers make a living.
New markets include craft manufacturers of ice cream, jams chutneys, sauces and marmalade... rum and gin makers... all queuing up to buy the best Cornish honey and pay a premium price for it.

 

[Apple]

SWN all I

It's a complicated business. About five years ago I started looking into breeding queens in a more organised way, increasing my stock etc.. I was also looking at honey imports and the effect it had on pricing in this country and the domino effect it had on any commercial operations here at that time. I also touched on the commercial queen rearing in Italy, Slovenia etc.. The conclusion I came to at that time was that any large scale beekeeping operation in the UK was fraught with problems. There was the weather, cheap imports, costs, to name but a few! I decided that my 'pipe-dream' of starting a bee keeping business would stay just that.
Three years ago I did a business course, using beekeeping as a model. I had also left my previous employment and was free to 'go with the flow' as an almost unemployable individual. (Over 60 with a 'dicky ticker') One may argue that this was now a 'crack-pipe dream!' However things were about to change and indeed were changing. The major factor being Brexit.
I realised that the importation of queens from all over the EU may slow down considerably. For the first year it will be a purely physical thing, as there will be great hold ups in importing everything! Two years ago, I asked BS Honeybees about buying new bees from them. They are big importers of queens. Talk about a depressing reply. Apparently, they could guarantee nothing and were considering moving to France! So, I might have been thinking on the right lines?
The second problem could involve import duties that were waived when we were in the 'club' and general greater expense incurred. I'm not sure how the withdrawal of the EU Agricultural Policy will impact. However, on the news the other day, the Government (bless'em) were saying that farmers would no longer get extra funds for growing crops, but would be paid extra to create 'natural reserves' on their land. Conclusion......it's all up for grabs!
Last year, I brought in ten nukes of British bred bees, documented on here. I set up a third apiary in Warwickshire, where I hope to expand them greatly. The optimist in me now says that this is the time to seize the chance to make bee-farming and honey production in this country a force to be reckoned with?

can say is "GO FOR IT"
There is a future for Beefarming in the UK and the ban on imports will most certainly hit the hobby market and those who import bees to sell into it..... very hard.
Good luck to them I say!
My business plan included building in time and equipment to produce enough new colonies and queens to replenish losses and allow for some expansion. Last season I produced a couple of hundred queens from selection and grafting.. I actually only sold half a dozen and gave a few away.... some got eaten by swallows...
It is a lot like planting seeds and pricking out... not all survive to give you show winning veggies!
39 are overwintering in Paynes double dekker nucs, 25 went up to single brood boxes in late summer and even though last season was disappointing I have also managed to expand, although I have not reached my target of 10 colonies in each apiary.... we just seem not to have the forage for megga 100 colony apiaries!

Covid has forced an overview of our marketing strategy, County shows which although very expensive to sell at and difficult to get invited to, were our major outlet.. these have been mostly cancelled leaving a massive hole in our budget to fill, however our website got re designed by a professional and now our online sales are moderately impressive.
I have looked for new markets as selling honey in bulk to the packers only makes their shareholders a profit, I have spent most of my life working my fingers to the bone for the banks, and only got left with bony fingers!
The bulk price offered by most of the packers for English honey is a total disgrace and I wonder how on Earth some beefarmers make a living.
New markets include craft manufacturers of ice cream, jams chutneys, sauces and marmalade... rum and gin makers... all queuing up to buy the best Cornish honey and pay a premium price for it.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Like others I've tried BSHoneybees

BS Buckfast or Carniolan, Tim?

 

[ericbeaumont]

The bulk price offered by most of the packers for English honey is a total disgrace and I wonder how on Earth some beefarmers make a living.

Yes, at £3.50/lb they must run (roughly) three times the colonies (though with less work) to equal those who sell retail at good prices. Each to their own: some like to only work bees and some like to include product marketing.

 

[Swn58]

My business plan included building in time and equipment to produce enough new colonies and queens to replenish losses and allow for some expansion. Last season I produced a couple of hundred queens from selection and grafting.. I actually only sold half a dozen and gave a few away.... some got eaten by swallows...
It is a lot like planting seeds and pricking out... not all survive to give you show winning veggies!
39 are overwintering in Paynes double dekker nucs, 25 went up to single brood boxes in late summer and even though last season was disappointing I have also managed to expand, although I have not reached my target of 10 colonies in each apiary.... we just seem not to have the forage for megga 100 colony apiaries!

I think I'm about a two years behind you at the moment, but my skill-set maybe further behind! My queen rearing failed this year, but 'lessons were learned' as they say. I go into this winter with only 18 strong hives, but who knows, it may be better eventually.
Queen-breeding, using splits and the Nicot system will be to the for, next season. Good advice has come from this forum and I am always thankful for that! The strange thing was, I got distracted by the incredible honey production this season. Processing took me longer than I wanted, due to lack of equipment.
I invested considerably last season in new hives, frames etc. It certainly mounts up. I went through about £7000 last year and made a couple of thousand on honey. Most of that went straight back into the business though. Honey sales got a bit complicated, when there were problems with my main buyer. I'm still holding about £700 worth of honey here! It will be sold though.
Next season I will buy around twenty new hives (Paradise) plus ten BS honeybees 'double nucs.' They are brilliant! I already have five, that were so useful this season. I also want twenty correx nucs.
Of course, they will all require frames and foundation. I also need a better honey production system......and jars.....and labels....and.......a paint sprayer!!!! Hahaha, just one more injection.....of about £5000?
My partner already knows that I am insane, so it's not worth anyone saying anything about that on here! It IS the time 'Apple.' I am a gambler anyway, but would rather lose lose as a beekeeper, than a poker player.