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Antipodes 

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Only using two vs makes the Queen have less of an area to lay in..
Obviously virgin comb speeds the process up and is easier to cut
Like Roger I use cut comb frames that haven't been drawn out completely (when available) although you can just cut the two vs even if they are drawn out completely, a bit of a waste in my eyes.
I would rather use full comb for something else like honey supers etc..
I've had comb snap so reverted back to wired drawn virgin comb although unwired comb is more pliable and you don't have to cut the wire.

The Miller frame method was also my grandads way of queen rearing.

I would also advize not to use foundation but use either unwired or wired virgin comb and not be two worried about the shape even if the vs aren't quite v shaped it doesn't really matter. Qcs will get drawn all the same.
Curly, how many queen cells are usually made by the bees on each frame?
 

beeno 

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My mentor is from western Ireland originally and he has said that queen's off Amm type are pretty much as good as they get there.
He has told me story's of beekeepers travelling to the UK with queen's in there pockets in years past.
It's a shame we can only get queen's from Northern Ireland these days.
Yes, but how good does it get. I went to a coloss meeting and DNA analysis made them 30% Amm. Wing morphology has been discredited. We were waiting for scientific confirmation of higher percentage claims. Any new studies?
 

RichardBeeW 

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ericbeaumont 

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Who the hell is Roger ?
Roger Patterson has kept bees for about 55 years, grew up with a farming background and was an engineer by trade. At one time he ran 130 colonies and now manages the teaching apiary at Wisborough Green BKA, a division of West Sussex BKA.

Roger is a practical beekeeper and I like his thorough style very much, though his strong views on aspects of beekeeping don't always find favour with others.

Truth is that if we all agreed with each other we wouldn't be beekeepers; I reckon Roger fits in well. :)
 

Swarm 

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Yes, but how good does it get. I went to a coloss meeting and DNA analysis made them 30% Amm. Wing morphology has been discredited. We were waiting for scientific confirmation of higher percentage claims. Any new studies?
There are local mongrels flying around with a higher percentage of Amm than that.
 
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Yes, but how good does it get. I went to a coloss meeting and DNA analysis made them 30% Amm. Wing morphology has been discredited. We were waiting for scientific confirmation of higher percentage claims. Any new studies?
as swarm said there are mongrels with more than 30% amm I can't qoute any study of hand.
It's not just about the morphology.
You can see the genetics with your own eyes, observations of habit.

Heres a photo.... What type of bee is she? She comes from a Amm colony which overwintered last year, colony only used 9.5 kgs of stores... They didn't build up in the spring so quick but were brilliant up here in bad weather have produced honey later on.
My observation, and what I know of melifera melifera they are over 80%.

I've seen a map at a meeting and even mongrels are well up there in % terms. You travel down south south east and the % drops... You can imagine the more you travel to the borders of Wales, and Scotland the higher the percentage....
Why??? Because they servive in these almost inhabitable places better than any other genus this is known.
If I was to completely let all my colonys fend for themselves I know which ones would servive ( natural selection).
And that is a observation I'm 100% about.

Beekeeper's will always have various opinions even when things are staring them in the face. Mho.
IMG_20200913_142035.jpg
Is she a Amm type??
Ow I forgot there is Amms in the south west in patches.

Maybe then we are all living in cloud cocko land ( play on a word) And there's no amms at all?? they are carnica instead... Apologies just my view. :)
 
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Apple 

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as swarm said there are mongrels with more than 30% amm I can't qoute any study of hand.
It's not just about the morphology.
You can see the genetics with your own eyes, observations of habit.

Heres a photo.... What type of bee is she? She comes from a Amm colony which overwintered last year, colony only used 9.5 kgs of stores... They didn't build up in the spring so quick but were brilliant up here in bad weather have produced honey later on.
My observation, and what I know of melifera melifera they are over 80%.

I've seen a map at a meeting and even mongrels are well up there in % terms. You travel down south south east and the % drops... You can imagine the more you travel to the borders of Wales, and Scotland the higher the percentage....
Why??? Because they servive in these almost inhabitable places better than any other genus this is known.
If I was to completely let all my colonys fend for themselves I know which ones would servive ( natural selection).
And that is a observation I'm 100% about.

Beekeeper's will always have various opinions even when things are staring them in the face. Mho.
View attachment 23305
Is she a Amm type??
Ow I forgot there is Amms in the south west in patches.

Maybe then we are all living in cloud cocko land ( play on a word) And there's no amms at all?? they are carnica instead... Apologies just my view. :)
Is she a Amm type??
Looks pretty Ammish to me!

Ow I forgot there is Amms in the south west in patches.
Yes ... where beekeepers have not introduced imported non native types.

It is anthropological... where wealth allowed Edwardian beekeepers introduced exotic species to show off to their friends, as they did with exotic plants from around the world.
In the years of the last century many tomes on beekeeping were written, and often were cut and past "facts" from other books.
The BBKA module books, specifically the one by Yates for the Basic Exam, states that the native bee was wiped out, and then goes on to misinform new beekeepers as to which bees are best!

It is almost possible to work out where wealth had influence around the UK by looking at honey bee type populations... Amm being in the poorest.. Wales Cornwall Western Isles Northumberland and of course the Island of Ireland... but I will not go into how the English treated the poor Irish!!

Nadelik Lowen
 

beeno 

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as swarm said there are mongrels with more than 30% amm I can't qoute any study of hand.
It's not just about the morphology.
You can see the genetics with your own eyes, observations of habit.
If a honey bee is 30% Amm then the other 70% is something else - clutching at straws I would call it. If sold as Amm on that basis I would call it misrepresentation and not at all what it says on the tin.
You cannot judge genotype on the basis of phenotype you need a full DNA test. If you are really selling Amm 90-100% true genotype then why not publish the findings? The Irish were on the verge of publishing their studies on this a couple of years ago. Not forthcoming or have I missed it?
 
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If a honey bee is 30% Amm then the other 70% is something else - clutching at straws I would call it. If sold as Amm on that basis I would call it misrepresentation and not at all what it says on the tin.
You cannot judge genotype on the basis of phenotype you need a full DNA test. If you are really selling Amm 90-100% true genotype then why not publish the findings? The Irish were on the verge of publishing their studies on this a couple of years ago. Not forthcoming or have I missed it?
I agree one can't clutch at straws..
I've have been told where to send samples and hopefully with there help will do so in the future.
I am collecting queen's from all different parts of the UK.

Maybe in the future we will get more of a diffinative answer as to the purety of Amm stock in the UK and Ireland.

I agree results need to be published.
Im not a biologist just a simple farmer who has observed what I've seen and building my knowledge based around the native bee.
Thanks beeno.
 

Swarm 

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If a honey bee is 30% Amm then the other 70% is something else - clutching at straws I would call it. If sold as Amm on that basis I would call it misrepresentation and not at all what it says on the tin.
You cannot judge genotype on the basis of phenotype you need a full DNA test. If you are really selling Amm 90-100% true genotype then why not publish the findings? The Irish were on the verge of publishing their studies on this a couple of years ago. Not forthcoming or have I missed it?
Sounds like someone is clutching at straws or just trolling?
 

Ian123 

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The fact is most beeks haven’t got a clue what type of bee they have and more often than not if they have an opinion it’s based on personal preference. I’ve seen a beek doing a roaring trade in black bees who regularly had carni breeders😂 go figure. I’ve got a island mated buckfast that’s as dark as you like. Colour is a very poor indicator. A friend had an order placed for a nuc, on calling the purchaser to sort collection the guy said they must bee black bees having not mentioned it before. My friend replied he had no black bees but he had some dark bees! Take it or leave it. After a long pause collection was arranged, he then rang every other week to tell my friend how happy he was with his lovely black bees. You just can’t help some people, they happened to be carniolans! I’m also a little dubious about people and dna tests. None ever get the whole stock tested and pre select. You don’t go wanting to prove you have Italian bees and send in 6 samples from the black/darker hives in the apiary for instance.
 

Apple 

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And early set of samples sent to the Swiss labs came back with one set of DNA showing an Italian genotype... bee was very black, and the breeder had been selecting for colour.

Most of the more recent samples from the peninsular of Cornwall have been 70% Amm ( mt) with a remaining coding (mt) for c type, mainly ligurian.
Carniolian did not seem to figure much in the mix

We have some that are 95% Amm... seems there will always be some introgression, but BA said that gives hybrid vigour, which is probably why our local natives produce so much honey and are superior in every way to imported exotics!

Of course there bees would not thrive in the Home Counties... far too common for there!
bee-smillie
Nadelik Lowen
 

Murox 

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Roger Patterson has kept bees for about 55 years, grew up with a farming background and was an engineer by trade. At one time he ran 130 colonies and now manages the teaching apiary at Wisborough Green BKA, a division of West Sussex BKA.

Roger is a practical beekeeper and I like his thorough style very much, though his strong views on aspects of beekeeping don't always find favour with others.

Truth is that if we all agreed with each other we wouldn't be beekeepers; I reckon Roger fits in well. :)
Thanks for the pen picture.
 

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