Worker or queen?

[Antipodes]

We'd all like to think so Dani. However, the bees don't always select the best larvae to nurse into queen bees. There is a continuum from that "perfect" queen at 12-18 hours all the way to worker at 3 days. Naturally, this means inter-caste "queens" can be raised that have some of the features of a queen but were too old to receive the nutrition that a perfect queen would have. They become runt "queens" - able to evade the keenest eye, slip through queen excluders and murder cells you are trying to raise in a "queenless" nuc.

Good to have your experience on the forum B+.

I wonder from your experience, if a queenless colony, that has only been given eggs to go on to raise as queens, might, in addition to raising emergency queens from appropriate aged larvae (once the eggs hatch), also go on to make any extra emergency queen cells from larva(e) that is too old?

 

[B+.]

Good to have your experience on the forum B+.

I wonder from your experience, if a queenless colony, that has only been given eggs to go on to raise as queens, might, in addition to raising emergency queens from appropriate aged larvae (once the eggs hatch), also go on to make any extra emergency queen cells from larva(e) that is too old?

If they have access to older larvae - yes, they may well make emergency queens from older larvae. This is where the inter-caste queens I showed in the attachment come from. The emergency queen, which is inferior because it didn't receive the nutrition that a queen fed from hatching to become a queen has, will also emerge first and kill any younger queens.

 

[Erichalfbee]

If they have access to older larvae - yes, they may well make emergency queens from older larvae. This is where the inter-caste queens I showed in the attachment come from. The emergency queen, which is inferior because it didn't receive the nutrition that a queen fed from hatching to become a queen has, will also emerge first and kill any younger queens.

What’s the oldest larva they can use, Paul? I was taught 3 days.

 

[B+.]

What’s the oldest larva they can use, Paul? I was taught 3 days.

Once it reaches that point, the larvae will develop into a worker anyway (see attachment on post #7)

The only thing that makes a queen, a queen, is the amount of RJ she is fed. The older the larva is, the less RJ she receives so the more worker-like she becomes.

 

[masterBK]

Worker larvae reaching their third day of development have their diet augmented by the crop contents of the nurse bees. There is a substance called p-coumaric acid found in honey, pollen and bee bread that plays a role in activating genes controlling aspects of detoxification and immunity. Work by Wenfu et al (2015) suggests that this phenolic chemical also has a major part in the differentiation of larvae into workers by suppressing their ovary development. P-coumaric acid is absent from royal jelly and because the larvae of future queens are not fed pollen or honey their ovaries can fully develop in the absence of the inhibitory effects of this phytochemical

Wenfu et al : A dietary phytochemical alters caste-associated gene expression in honey bees https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/advances/1/7/e1500795.full.pdf

 

[B+.]

Worker larvae reaching their third day of development have their diet augmented by the crop contents of the nurse bees. There is a substance called p-coumaric acid found in honey, pollen and bee bread that plays a role in activating genes controlling aspects of detoxification and immunity. Work by Wenfu etc al (2015) suggests that this phenolic chemical also has a major part in the differentiation of larvae into workers by suppressing their ovary development. P-coumaric acid is absent from royal jelly and because the larvae of future queens are not fed pollen or honey their ovaries can fully develop in the absence of the inhibitory effects of this phytochemical

Wenfu et al : A dietary phytochemical alters caste-associated gene expression in honey bees https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/advances/1/7/e1500795.full.pdf

The only thing I'd add is that larvae selected to become potential queens should be as young as possible. Instead of asking: "How old can a larva be?", we should be saying: "How young can we make it?" - the longer the larva receives RJ, the better the queen will be

 

[Erichalfbee]

The only thing I'd add is that larvae selected to become potential queens should be as young as possible. Instead of asking: "How old can a larva be?", we should be saying: "How young can we make it?" - the longer the larva receives RJ, the better the queen will be

My question was really to aid the decision in when a colony is safe from making emergency cells.

 

[B+.]

My question was really to aid the decision in when a colony is safe from making emergency cells.

I'll form a cell raising colony from frames of sealed brood containing no open larvae (i.e. they've been above a queen excluder for 9 days). Even then, I'll make sure there are no emergency cells by shaking bees off the frame and destroying anything that even looks like an emergency cell. I wouldn't consider anything less than this "safe".

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'll form a cell raising colony from frames of sealed brood containing no open larvae (i.e. they've been above a queen excluder for 9 days). Even then, I'll make sure there are no emergency cells by shaking bees off the frame and destroying anything that even looks like an emergency cell. I wouldn't consider anything less than this "safe".

Which makes the top half of a Demaree a good place to make a nuc from if you are introducing that “exotic import”

 

[B+.]

Which makes the top half of a Demaree a good place to make a nuc from if you are introducing that “exotic import”

It works well for any introduction - or as a cell raising colony

 

[elainemary]

The only thing I'd add is that larvae selected to become potential queens should be as young as possible. Instead of asking: "How old can a larva be?", we should be saying: "How young can we make it?" - the longer the larva receives RJ, the better the queen will be

Was listening to an interesting podcast with Prof Jamie Ellis & latest research is quantity of feed is thought to be more important now than quality. Previously quality and quantity were thought to be equally important. They varied the quality of feed and found that as long as it was high ie fed to excess, very good queens emerged with high numbers of ovarioles.

 

[B+.]

Was listening to an interesting podcast with Prof Jamie Ellis & latest research is quantity of feed is thought to be more important now than quality. Previously quality and quantity were thought to be equally important. They varied the quality of feed and found that as long as it was high ie fed to excess, very good queens emerged with high numbers of ovarioles.

Yes. It seems rational to me that any shortage of food (at any point in its development) would affect the quality of the queen.