Wintering over an empty super

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This is all quite complicated. Brood and a half have a brood that is three quarters full of honey. Will i still need to give a super with a few frames of honey in as well. Or will the brood be enough stores
 
I know many people who do this. There are a couple of variants. The starting point in autumn is a national brood box with the brood under a queen excluder under the last shallow super they fill (ivy or sugar syrup say). Before the weather or season changes you remove the queen excluder to avoid the cluster moving away from the queen.

One variant is to leave the nearly full super on top. Then in late winter or early spring you hope to find it empty and the queen and brood still below when you can remove the shallow or put the excluder back. Leave it too late and there's brood in the super. Plus over winter the queen and brood are exposed through the OMF. So a variant is to move the nearly full shallow super under the brood. Stores will be used or moved as needed when the weather permits, the queen is less likely to lay in frames in the lower position and the brood gets less draught from the OMF. If you're dribbling oxalic in late December it's also more likely to be on the cluster just under the crown board. In late winter/early spring, the shallow box should be nearly empty and can be removed or it can go back over the brood box and queen excluder if there is early blackthorn coming in.

Yes, it probably is more moving stores and work for the bees, but on mild days they are active anyway. It's more work for the beekeeper moving boxes and monitoring. It's also probably more vulnerable to mice and very late wasp robbing. Timing, as ever, is dependent on weather; as it was to that point and as forecast. You're looking for all the stores needed being in (ivy finishing) but they're still active. Middle of October maybe when temperatures should be mid teens most days. It probably works better in the South with mild spells. I don't recall any entire week this past winter when I didn't see bees flying at least one day. Insulation slabs over the boxes probably gives a greater margin too. In a longer, colder winter you might be safer with them rising into the stores. In long cold spells the cluster could be high and isolated. Even with stores below, adding fondant above might be a useful precaution.

I tried a couple of side by side trials a couple of winters ago with brood box plus super of stores. Stores over or below didn't make a lot of difference. Some do try to reduce to one National brood box per colony over winter and they do fine. I'm happier with the insurance of stores that pass the winter unused. 14x12 is one way out of it, but for Demarees etc I like the versatility of standard deep National brood boxes. Placing that shallow of winter stores over or below will probably depend more on whether I see a weather window than any hard rules.

Thank you alanf, you have given me much to think about, considering my kit is all national :)
 
This is all quite complicated. Brood and a half have a brood that is three quarters full of honey. Will i still need to give a super with a few frames of honey in as well. Or will the brood be enough stores

A brood box full of stores has never let me down in 25 years but in the last five I have been adding a super as well. Don't know why because they rarely eat it all but......then I KNOW they have enough!
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Thanks enrico. I just need things spelling out to me really slowly ;) My concentration is getting worse so thank you for explaining plainly. Got it now :)

Hope you are feeling better after your incident btw. Have you been forgiven? lol

They didn't forgive me, three days later the main hive that collapsed swarmed. Wish I had never saved them! Obviously I didn't kill the queen!
I have recovered though. One for telling at Christmas dinner!
Thanks kaz
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They didn't forgive me, three days later the main hive that collapsed swarmed. Wish I had never saved them! Obviously I didn't kill the queen!
I have recovered though. One for telling at Christmas dinner!
Thanks kaz
E

Those ungrateful swines!! After you took them in too! Tut tut ;)

Glad you are feeling better :)
 
Do you consider that the vertical space allowed by a brood and half allows the bees to form a more "natural" shaped winter cluster.

I have heard it advocated that a national brood on its own is too squat, and doesn't allow the "oval" winter cluster to spread vertically, as would happen in nature, (always presuming the "natural" cavity allowed such a shape!!) A brood and a half, or any similar configuration, is said to allow a more natural winter cluster.

So, does anyone know what shape a winter cluster is, and if the height to width ratio is likely to make a difference??? ta
 
BB,

That was one of the many considerations when I changed to 14 x 12. No gap for them to cross, or rather continuity of comb for better heat retention, and they could more easily choose their own cluster shape as well as moving away from the OMF if the weather was very very cold.

Someone at my BKA had also said there was a risk of them not crossing the gap between deep and super if extremely cold. At the time I was new and believed him, but never heard it mentioned ever, since. Maybe he was referring to anecdotal evidence from back in 1963!

RAB
 
This is all quite complicated. Brood and a half have a brood that is three quarters full of honey. Will i still need to give a super with a few frames of honey in as well. Or will the brood be enough stores

Only if they are going to eat more than you do.

Will i still need to give a super with a few frames of honey in as well
Where are you going to put them?
 
Hi
There's two different things here
One is putting a drawn super above the brood box which the bees fill with Winter stores
That considered necessary with some bees and advantageous because the stores are above the brood combs where the bees cluster
The second is putting an empty brood box below the brood box this is to allow space for the bees below stores in the brood box where they can cluster at the bottom of Combs and cross easily to the next frame of stores
Hope that makes it clearer
I dont do either myself but its best to know your own bees and area before you know what works so no harm in trying either before deciding
 
Because I use an empty super without frames there is no gap between the stores. If putting a super of frames with stores above there is more chance of the queen laying in it than if the super was under. However having the super above might be a good way to do a comb change. Unfortunately this wouldn't work for me as I use drone base foundation in the supers.
 
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