Winter loss

[Beelosser]

Hi
Through my polycarb crown board I am now seeing (have looked twice overwinter) literally 3 bees. There is no activity on the type of days where in the past there was plenty. There is plenty of food and the bees seem to be able to move about. I feel that I have lost my colony. I will restart, but wonder what to do with all the drawn foundation that the bees worked so hard to make?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

you sure they have died out or are they just clustered deep down amongst the frames with no reason to be up under the crownboard?

 

[Amari]

You could put some sticky paper on the varroa board and after a couple of days see if any 'dross' has fallen down - indicating that the bees are uncapping stores and that brood is hatching. You might see lines of dross which will indicate how many seems of bees you have.

 

[Beelosser]

you sure they have died out or are they just clustered deep down amongst the frames with no reason to be up under the crownboard?

Hope that is the case. A friend has a thermal camera that I am borrowing. But I can’t hear any buzzing as I have over the last few winters and there is no debris on the varroa board. Although they are on brood and a half with the half at the bottom and maybe the debris isn’t falling the whole way through.

 

[ericbeaumont]

As JBM inferred, too early to decide definitively.

On a still day at 12 or 13C pull out a frame and see what's what. If they're dead but you don't want to clear out the hives just yet, seal the entrances until you're ready. Keep good clean combs and burn the dark or anything rough.

If the bees are alive but struggling, ask yourself why. Likely options are queen failure (late summer onwards), starvation, varroa, or nosema. If the queens are still going but the colonies tiny, consider transferring to polynucs.

Put a smartphone to video and put it under the mesh floor; might get a result.

 

[Amari]

No debris = worrying.

 

[Erichalfbee]

This is why I love my infra red

 

[Buzzo]

get a usb micro camera, can be attached to phones,most are at least 1 metre long

 

[Swarm]

Hope that is the case. A friend has a thermal camera that I am borrowing. But I can’t hear any buzzing as I have over the last few winters and there is no debris on the varroa board. Although they are on brood and a half with the half at the bottom and maybe the debris isn’t falling the whole way through.

Let's hope they are clustered lower down, it may well be the case.

 

[Beelosser]

Used the phone to video. Of course could only see the bottom box. It was empty but seemed full of honey- I had nadired a super. F I have lost my colony what would be the best way/ earliest I could start again. I have plenty of equipment and drawn comb

 

[Erichalfbee]

Have a look at the usual suspects for an overwintering nuc which you can get in April but be quick.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Ceri Morgan @mbc has nucs available but they are selling out fast.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

could only see the bottom box. It was empty but seemed full of honey- I had nadired a super

That's the problem with blindly following those that just nadir without really thinking about what they're doing.
The trouble with nadiring a full super (taking away all the stores from above the cluster where they need it and want it and putting it all underneath), especially right at the end of a season is that the bees may not move it back up on top, come the winter they will first work upwards thus separating the cluster from stores below and, especially if it gets cold, they won't go back down (which anyway is totally against their instinct) and thus die of isolation starvation.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Nadiring supers has become a bit of a fad hasn’t it?
It’s fine done after extraction to move uncapped stores up but recently people have been doing it to supply the bees with capped stores for winter. It totally ignores where bees like to keep their overwintering stores

 

[Beelosser]

When I say nadired, the truth is not quite that organised. I saw signs of swarming and started doing a split. There was an nearly full super and two brood boxes. In a faff I ended up putting the brood box with the queen on it on the full super. It was on a bee floor so I just left it. It was end of July. The queen kept laying and bees filled another half super. Seemed better to say on the forum that it was a deliberately cock up

 

[Erichalfbee]

When I say nadired, the truth is not quite that organised. I saw signs of swarming and started doing a split. There was an nearly full super and two brood boxes. In a faff I ended up putting the brood box with the queen on it on the full super. It was on a bee floor so I just left it. It was end of July. The queen kept laying and bees filled another half super. Seemed better to say on the forum that it was a deliberately cock up

No matter. Don’t worry. We all make mistakes. Super on top next time.

 

[elainemary]

When I say nadired, the truth is not quite that organised. I saw signs of swarming and started doing a split. There was an nearly full super and two brood boxes. In a faff I ended up putting the brood box with the queen on it on the full super. It was on a bee floor so I just left it. It was end of July. The queen kept laying and bees filled another half super. Seemed better to say on the forum that it was a deliberately cock up

Don’t beat yourself up. I’ve nadired 10 colonies for the last 4 years at the end of august without a problem. They all moved the stores up by end September when I do my last inspection. Tend to leave the super in place as heat rises so gives a bit of space for any large colonies to hang into the space if needed. Then no searching for queens in supers and brood in the super in the spring. Sorry to hear about the loss of your colony, suspect unfortunately something else at play, given you under supered in July.

 

[Do224]

Nadiring supers has become a bit of a fad hasn’t it?
It’s fine done after extraction to move uncapped stores up but recently people have been doing it to supply the bees with capped stores for winter. It totally ignores where bees like to keep their overwintering stores

so why do people do it? Isn’t it easier to leave the super on top, minus the queen excluder…

 

[Erichalfbee]

so why do people do it? Isn’t it easier to leave the super on top, minus the queen excluder…

Yes, it's easier but the bees take the uncapped honey up into the brood really quickly if it's under.
You can put the super on top but sometimes the bees leave it alone. There are a few tricks to get them to move the honey. You can put a crown board with a one bee space hole in it then the bees react as if the honey is outside the hive and move it. Putting an empty super under the honey one can help. It hasn't always worked for me. On occasion I've just spun it out and fed it back.
Sometimes even if nectar is available they will put it in the super instead of the brood

 

[Boston Bees]

so why do people do it?

Because they don't want to get to spring and find the queen laying brood in their super frames.

I don't nadir supers myself, but this is why people don't want to leave the super on top over winter.