Winter brood rearing?

[Hawklord]

What triggers brood rearing in winter? Is it outside or inside temps? Is it day length? Is it the shrinking colony size due to bees dying off?

 

[Little John]

What triggers brood rearing in winter? Is it outside or inside temps? Is it day length? Is it the shrinking colony size due to bees dying off?

Mobus held the opinion that it was a rise in the water balance within the cluster:
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=32318
post 4

LJ

 

[oliver90owner]

Onset of spring, as far as the bees are concerned? Winter brooding is something that can continue throughout the 'rest period'.

It is not simply for the reason suggested, but most certainly needs to have commenced well before all he bees have died off.

 

[Hawklord]

Mobus held the opinion that it was a rise in the water balance within the cluster:
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=32318
post 4

LJ

So if the humidity is favourable bees will rear brood even if it is not needed?

 

[BeeJayBee]

Eva Crane, in The World History of Beekeeping and Honey Hunting 1999 says

This early start of brood rearing is triggered by the increasing photo- period (day length), and is a necessary part of the bees' survival strategy. ​

 

[user 6228]

when they looked scientifically for photo periodism in bees that found it is only very weak. Considering the bees kickoff their run up to spring in January when temperatures are dropping and daylength is very uncertain, due to weather and they are not out many days so its unlikely to be photoperiodic or temperature. Remember even without weather variation day length does not change much between November to February.

My pet theory is Sun altitude, Bee's are very good at sensing Sun azimuth in relation to landmarks for navigation , so they may be aware of increasing sun altitude against the background on bright days to judge time of year. Any one got a few hundred thousand knicker for me to prove it?

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Nice try Derek, but you've got the same problem that has beset all bee research - too many variables: type of bee, local microclimate, seasonal variance, temperature outside hive, temperature inside hive, humidity inside hive, day length, height of sun, food availability, food quality to name but a few.

You'll need all of your "couple of hundred thousand pounds" to sort all of that lot out!

CVB

 

[Finman]

.
There are many activities which tell that bees are aware what season is going.

http://www.extension.org/pages/2174...basic-bee-biology-for-beekeepers#.VKePOWccRjo


https://books.google.fi/books?id=SC...onal cycle of brood rearing honey bee&f=false

Day length is an universal signal to the nature, plants or amimals, what time of year is going.


Water balance in cluster.... As far as I know, Mobus has no career in biological sciences.

All scientific sources tell that bees' seasonal brooding cycle is based on day lengt and presence of pollen. Pollen tells that there are flowers.


Local bees and adaptation in local seasonal cycles. That is a Basic thing in different bee races. Races are over20 including African races and they all have special features.
Local adaptation does not happen via "water balance".



Bees have a strong instinct to react on weathers, when to slow down brood rearing and spare resources and when to add brooding speed.

 

[Finman]

.
Winter brood rearing and adaptation of bees to local nature conditions


I can buy queens from Italy and I will get colonies which have poor adaptation to my local climate.

It means....

- bees do not react enough to signals that autumn is coming
- they rear too late brood and those brood will have lack of pollen
- lack of pollen in emerged young bees means weak wintering and not normal growth of worker bee.
- weak winterers are sentitive to diseases like nosema

Some strains, what I have had, starts too early brood rearing when soil is covered with snow. They are mad to rear brood and waste their stores and starve easily.

When there is short of pollen in the hive bees first eate their larvae.

You could imagine what happens to the hive if it rears larvae one week and then it eates them.
And those bees which have feeded larvae, they will not live up to wintering cluster.

Wintering is a long happening in colonys' life and many things happens during that time. Diseases hit when bees are weak.
Bees survive over winter if they have a good rest period. Winter bees have special features which make them long living.
Bees must rear a new worker generation during early spring before they themselves die. To that they need good health and long livety

 

[REDWOOD]

Eva Crane, in The World History of Beekeeping and Honey Hunting 1999 says

This early start of brood rearing is triggered by the increasing photo- period (day length), and is a necessary part of the bees' survival strategy. ​

with you and finman on this, no other possible reason.

 

[Finman]

.
Originally Posted by BeeJoyful View Post
Eva Crane, in The World History of Beekeeping and Honey Hunting 1999 says
This early start of brood rearing is triggered by the increasing photo- period (day length), and is a necessary part of the bees' survival strategy.


Yes, that is a strange habit in colonies. I have found in my hives that colonies start brood rearing in February even if out temp is couple of weeks -20C.

The science says that colonies rear some brood very early, but they do not know why it is so important and universal.

How can I notice that... If I see emerging bees in the first week of March, they have feeded larvae in the middle of February in the coldest month.
.

 

[Erichalfbee]

with you and finman on this, no other possible reason.

Me too

My pet theory is Sun altitude, Bee's are very good at sensing Sun azimuth in relation to landmarks for navigation , so they may be aware of increasing sun altitude against the background on bright days to judge time of year. Any one got a few hundred thousand knicker for me to prove it?

If you postulate a specific waggle dance for this you might be in luck

 

[Finman]

Any one got a few hundred thousand knicker for me to prove it?

I think that it is waste of any one's time

These things have researched decades ago. You just search from google

.

 

[Little John]

Eva Crane, in The World History of Beekeeping and Honey Hunting 1999 says

This early start of brood rearing is triggered by the increasing photo- period (day length), and is a necessary part of the bees' survival strategy. ​

Is she not referring here to early spring ? As there is no increase in day-length in December, and precious little in January.

I'm also curious to know how a zeitgeber is sensed within the (perhaps) constant darkness of a hive. As not all hive entrances allow sunlight to enter the box.
And - even if bees are able to leave the hive and make clearance flights, a free-running zeitgeber needs to be entrained to sunset in order to sense any increase in day-length. But how many bees make their winter clearance flights at sunset ?

LJ

 

[rolande]

What triggers brood rearing in winter? Is it outside or inside temps? Is it day length? Is it the shrinking colony size due to bees dying off?

Looking from the other angle, what causes a total suppression of brood rearing and is it really a more powerful phenomena than the instinct to raise brood?

 

[Little John]

Water balance in cluster.... As far as I know, Mobus has no career in biological sciences.

Whether he has or not, good science begins with the making of careful observations with an open mind - something sadly lacking in some who have been schooled in but one branch of science, and view the world though the monochromatic perceptual filter that such a limited education engenders.

Science is but one way of looking at the natural world - and a very useful tool it is too - but other perspectives are equally valid and equally valuable.

LJ

 

[REDWOOD]

Some info here
http://www.otago.ac.nz/genetics/otago038351.pdf

 

[masterBK]

Numerous animals and many plants respond to daylength to trigger various things and are quite sensitive to very small changes (even the onion which is not known to have a big brain!!) . Bees are good at estimating periods of time relative to the suns position eg learn a dance at one time of day and go out and find the flowers much later that day when the suns posiiton in the sky has changed considerably. Don't need all the bees to work it out just a few "scout" bees who will then recruit others to prepare the cells, increase the feeding of the queen etc

 

[farbee]

Whether he has or not, good science begins with the making of careful observations with an open mind - something sadly lacking in some who have been schooled in but one branch of science, and view the world though the monochromatic perceptual filter that such a limited education engenders.

Science is but one way of looking at the natural world - and a very useful tool it is too - but other perspectives are equally valid and equally valuable.

LJ

This makes a lot of sense to me.

But would add it is often difficult to not become so specialised if you really want to understand a particular problem in science. This is one reason why collaboration is so important rather than simply postulating I reckon this is not important etc.

In this case I reckon (for what its worth which is not very much) that there are probably a number of factors that trigger brooding. Light; Temperature; Scent of flowers would be my suspects.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Any one got a few hundred thousand knicker for me to prove it?

You haven't got a hope - you only get funding for really worthwhile studies like why do conrflakes go soggy when you cover them with milk, or the dynamics of when a dunked biscuit falls into your tea.