Who uses the Rose Hive method ?

[Madge]

The plywood sides run parallel with the frames, so you could add an insulated dummy board at each end.

 

[Finman]

The plywood sides run parallel with the frames, so you could add an insulated dummy board at each end.

No one use that kind of hive construction.... Insulative dummy boards!

 

[Madge]

No one use that kind of hive construction.... Insulative dummy boards!

Why not, Finman? I've made quite a few using Kingspan covered with thin correx.

 

[Obee1]

Why not, Finman? I've made quite a few using Kingspan covered with thin correx.

I have got some blocks of insulation in place of the end frames in my nationals. Only downside is the reduction in space within the hive. As I run double brood box I reckon it doesn't matter too much. It would be more of a problem in a rose size hive though. I wonder whether to stick with national brood boxes but use the rose method. Weight is the main issue but I have managed so far! I need to buy/ make more hives and am undecided which size.
Obee

 

[Obee1]

You don't need to use his boxes if you don't want to. I use cut down poly boxes which over winter well.

However the system was developed in Ireland and if they over winter there... You could clad them in kingspan in winter?

Mike.

Are your poly boxes national brood cut down to rose size?

Obee

 

[wessexmario]

If you have national hives, then a double brood without a QX and then as many supers as the hive will produce would seem to give the advantages of the rose method without having to change the kit.

 

[Obee1]

If you have national hives, then a double brood without a QX and then as many supers as the hive will produce would seem to give the advantages of the rose method without having to change the kit.

By supers you mean shallow boxes? The whole point of rose is the one size box which gives interchangeability throughout the hive. As I only have one hive at the moment I need one size of frame. Am thinking cheapest option is stick to national brood box size but lessen the weight by replacing end frames with kingspan. This would mean 9 or 10 frames per box. I am going to split the hive as soon as feasible. Only prob is how do I know when drones will be available to mate Virgin queens?

Obee

 

[DulwichGnome]

Are your poly boxes national brood cut down to rose size?

Obee

Yes and they are 10 frame boxes so I don't see that two dummy frames in the ply box would be a problem. I think the frames are a bit expensive, I buy standards in the sale and cut them down.

You could still use you standard box as the bottom box of the hive, it would just mean they had a bit of cluster space at the bottom.

Mike.

 

[DulwichGnome]

If you have national hives, then a double brood without a QX and then as many supers as the hive will produce would seem to give the advantages of the rose method without having to change the kit.

Part of the management of a Rose hive is to put a box in between two boxes with brood in them which works best if they are all the same size.

Mike

 

[DulwichGnome]

For those of you who might not have seen this, an example of a Rose hive,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyZ-5AjXfHE

Mike.

 

[Madge]

... I wonder whether to stick with national brood boxes but use the rose method. Weight is the main issue ...

Part of the management of a Rose hive is to put a box in between two boxes with brood in them which works best if they are all the same size.
Mike

As Mike said, the 'management' part of the Rose method is to add a box in between two brood boxes (breaking up the brood nest) when the boxes are jam-packed with bees. I wonder whether using a standard National broodbox might not be a bit too deep to be used like that. An alternative might be to use only shallows. Easier lifting too.
Kitta

 

[Finman]

As Mike said, the 'management' part of the Rose method is to add a box in between two brood boxes (breaking up the brood nest) when the boxes are jam-packed with bees.
Kitta

- very strange advice. Why let the hive jam-packed?
- basic rule is that in every beekeeping, that do not brake brood area with empty frame, and now the whole box.

- be carefull what you do. Breaking the order of brood area you may destroy quite a lot brood when bees are not able to keep warm those brood.

The queen must be very good if it lays in 2 box. And laying in 3 box is very rare.

 

[Madge]

- very strange advice. Why let the hive jam-packed?
- basic rule is that in every beekeeping, that do not brake brood area with empty frame, and now the whole box.

- be carefull what you do. Breaking the order of brood area you may destroy quite a lot brood when bees are not able to keep warm those brood.

The queen must be very good if it lays in 2 box. And laying in 3 box is very rare.

That's not my 'advice', Finman - that's me explaining the essence of the Rose Hive method. The reason for the 'jam-packed' hive is so that the bees have the workforce to be able to cross that empty space (according to the Rose Hive method).

I don't break up the brood and I agree with you that one should be careful about breaking the brood nest. That's why I suggested that if Obee1 wants to practise the Rose Hive Method with standard National boxes, the shallow might be a better option.
Kitta

 

[Dishmop]

I'm thinking of trying the rose hive method this year. At the moment I run a double brood box system but will attempt the switch over by inserting a rose box in the middle and then when the brood chamber reaches into the rose box reversing places with the bottom (national) brood box. This way the national brood boxes gradually work their way up the stack until they contain only honey and are harvested. All new boxes added will be rose ones. Reading the book it seems a very good method of bee management. My main concern though is those thin ply walls in the colder months. Am wondering if I could incorporate insulation in or on the outside the of the walls.

Obee

so tell me please what is going to be the difference between your present brood boxes and a Rose box?

 

[wessexmario]

The queen must be very good if it lays in 2 box. And laying in 3 box is very rare.

Yes, but which box size are you using?
A rose box is only about 80% of the height of a national brood box.

The principle isn't that the whole width of the box is used, it's that the brood takes on a thinner taller shape, which is easier for the bees to manage.
The idea is that is easier for them to feed and temperature control brood in a tall vertical column, rather than a wide short column, where they have to spread over more seams, the outer frames of each [brood] box will contain stores, not brood.

 

[dexter's shed]

Really interesting Thanks

is it not though an issue of when removing honey frames there can be brood present ?

if I'm reading the book correctly, same as watching Tim's you tube video's, you do not remove honey the same as in a hive using an excluder, you wait longer for the honey, but in doing that, you make more bees, once the "longest day" has been and gone, the bees go from bee production to honey production, you'll therefore be able to mark the osb and anything under the mark will contain brood, above honey stores.

I started two rose hives off last year in my woods, one in an actual rose box and one using the rose method with commercial supers,
the commercial died off, the rose bees, in one box only pulled through, and the same as tim, I rarely feed.

I've seen cut outs where the bees have built and survived for years behind larch lap panel fencing type materials (thinner than ply)

 

[Finman]

Yes, but which box size are you using?
A rose box is only about 80% of the height of a national brood box.

The principle isn't that the whole width of the box is used, it's that the brood takes on a thinner taller shape, which is easier for the bees to manage.
The idea is that is easier for them to feed and temperature control brood in a tall vertical column, rather than a wide short column, where they have to spread over more seams, the outer frames of each [brood] box will contain stores, not brood.

I use langstroth boxes as brood boxes and without excluder (50 y)

I cannot see any new ideas in Rose Method. I know how bees act if excluder are used or not used.

80% that of national brood box?

I know many professional beekeepers who use only langstroth medium. It is perhaps near Rose box. They overwinter their hives in hard temperatures like -30c.

Brood area shape is not important. It is so as you arrange it. To me it isimportant that I keep it compact. Otherwise bees do hard work to return their own idea.

 

[Madge]

I use langstroth boxes as brood boxes and without excluder (50 y)

I cannot see any new ideas in Rose Method. I know how bees act if excluder are used or not used.

80% that of national brood box?

I know many professional beekeepers who use only langstroth medium. It is perhaps near Rose box. They overwinter their hives in hard temperatures like -30c.

Brood area shape is not important. It is so as you arrange it. To me it isimportant that I keep it compact. Otherwise bees do hard work to return their own idea.

Finman, the Rose method is not about not using an excluder (as you say - there's nothing new about that - you do that; so do I and many other people) - it's the way he adds boxes to the hive: a new box slotted in-between two other boxes - that's why he uses a box that's shallower than a normal National brood box (80% of the height according to Dexter), and that's why the box size matters in this case.

Tim Rowe says that by adding a box in that way, the bees rapidly fill the new box and the numbers are quickly strengthened. It works for him, but I've never tried it - so I don't know ...

PS: yes, you could probably manage a hive according to the Rose method using Langstroth mediums (but I think the frames might be too wide for that - too much space around the brood nest area).