When you think you are on top of things (update)

Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum

Help Support Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum:

hemo 

Drone Bee
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
1,221
Reaction score
673
Location
West Sussex /RH.
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
6-10
Once a Q emerges the chances are very high that a swarm with the VQ will occur esp if other QC's are left in places, one is playing devils advocate to leave the bees to it. If they are in swarming mode then that is what they do in a busy or congested colony.
One will often be ok if it is a small uncongested nuc or a late SS in the year but at all other times anytime after March to late summer can be swarm time.
 

hemo 

Drone Bee
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
1,221
Reaction score
673
Location
West Sussex /RH.
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
6-10
Probably 95% had vanished with just a few stragglers left in the hive. I checked the brood frame before the swarm was put back in and there was some bees emerging so the cold didn't kill them off.
Sounds like the urge to swarm or find another home wasn't subdued.
 

jeff33 

Drone Bee
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
1,156
Reaction score
272
Location
Gower, where all the fun happens
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
14 now...and still counting
It will not be subdued. Even removing the queen to a nuc and leaving just 1 cell will not work if they have the means to make more as they will swarm with the 1st virgin.
 

elainemary 

Field Bee
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Jun 1, 2019
Messages
612
Reaction score
644
Location
Yorkshire
Hive Type
wbc
Number of Hives
10
This year I've used demaree on strong colonies to be proactive following JBMs Excellent post.

However one colony had already started drawing cells so I used my trusty snelgrove boards to split. I usually put the queen on an empty drawn comb and shake in a few nurse bees with her then put all the brood above in the top box. I don't tend to bleed foragers down as much as the official version though, I usually swap the doors over on the next inspection. Seems to work for me.
I like vertical splits and I have a couple of Snelgrove boards that fit my WBCs.

I’m trying out Ken Basterfields method this year. He puts the queen below like you but splits the brood and turns the entrance around so flying bees don’t return. Then opens a top entrance above on the original side with the rest of the brood, so flying bees move up & away from the queen. You have to make sure there’s a frame with eggs / young larva & put the supers above.

Like the sound of it, will try it this season.
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

International Beekeeper of Mystery
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
26,750
Reaction score
4,330
Location
Glanaman,Carmarthenshire,Wales
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
Too many - but not nearly enough
You have to make sure there’s a frame with eggs / young larva & put the supers above.
The only reason he puts all the supers above the two brood boxes is that he has misread Demarree's original article.
 

jeff33 

Drone Bee
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
1,156
Reaction score
272
Location
Gower, where all the fun happens
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
14 now...and still counting
I like vertical splits and I have a couple of Snelgrove boards that fit my WBCs.
I tend to do the vertical split using a demaree board but I put a smaller mesh over the hole so bees can't go through. Bottom box has 1 frame of bias, supers, demaree board with entrance facing the other way, old BB with all the brood and queen. After 7-8 days I go in the bottom box, remove the frame of brood and replace with a new one. After 2 cycle the queen goes back down and let the top box raise their own. As Hivemaker said, you could do a 3rd cycle and re-unite the full hive.
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

International Beekeeper of Mystery
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Mar 30, 2011
Messages
26,750
Reaction score
4,330
Location
Glanaman,Carmarthenshire,Wales
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
Too many - but not nearly enough
Do you recommend a different approach Emyr?
It's a Demarree - treat it as such.
Dan has decided that because Demarree didn't specifically say 'put the brood in a second box above the supers' that the second brood box goes directly above the box with the queen in, he's wrong because what Demarree actually said was (knowing that not everyone would recognise the word 'supers') 'Put all the brood frames in the topmost box'
Putting the upper entrance to face a different direction is totally superfluous. Demarre never used an upper entrance.
 

elainemary 

Field Bee
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Jun 1, 2019
Messages
612
Reaction score
644
Location
Yorkshire
Hive Type
wbc
Number of Hives
10
It's a Demarree - treat it as such.
Dan has decided that because Demarree didn't specifically say 'put the brood in a second box above the supers' that the second brood box goes directly above the box with the queen in, he's wrong because what Demarree actually said was (knowing that not everyone would recognise the word 'supers') 'Put all the brood frames in the topmost box'
Putting the upper entrance to face a different direction is totally superfluous. Demarre never used an upper entrance.
Think we may be talking about different things..
I was referring to this - Ken Basterfields method of a vertical split for reactive swarm control vs a proactive Demaree for swarm prevention.

 

elainemary 

Field Bee
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Jun 1, 2019
Messages
612
Reaction score
644
Location
Yorkshire
Hive Type
wbc
Number of Hives
10
I tend to do the vertical split using a demaree board but I put a smaller mesh over the hole so bees can't go through. Bottom box has 1 frame of bias, supers, demaree board with entrance facing the other way, old BB with all the brood and queen. After 7-8 days I go in the bottom box, remove the frame of brood and replace with a new one. After 2 cycle the queen goes back down and let the top box raise their own. As Hivemaker said, you could do a 3rd cycle and re-unite the full hive.
So many options! Similar to the Basterfield method but some differences...posted the link below


Think I marginally prefer theirs for earlier in the season, mainly as less manipulating. Can still unite after new queen made.
Be interested in what you think to it. Haven’t tried it yet but plan to give it a go.
 

Erichalfbee 

Super Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Jul 23, 2009
Messages
22,197
Reaction score
3,880
Location
Ceredigion
Hive Type
14x12
Number of Hives
7
I must say that beekeepers’ ingenuity in swarm management never ceases to amaze me. I’m quite giddy reading through all these methods and folks’ adaptations of it.
I like to keep things simple. I nuc the queen reactively and Demaree proactively. My beekeeping is quite boring really.
 

hemo 

Drone Bee
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
1,221
Reaction score
673
Location
West Sussex /RH.
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
6-10
I must say that beekeepers’ ingenuity in swarm management never ceases to amaze me. I’m quite giddy reading through all these methods and folks’ adaptations of it.
I like to keep things simple. I nuc the queen reactively and Demaree proactively. My beekeeping is quite boring really.
Boring really, I would call it KISS with no complicated swarm techniques.
It is the same that I practice.
All my hives starting from early spring have one BB and a couple of supers stored on the hive above the insulated Poly CB for the proactive bit. I carry a nuc in the car if I want to make use of an extra nice looking QC or an emerging one.
 
Last edited:

jeff33 

Drone Bee
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
1,156
Reaction score
272
Location
Gower, where all the fun happens
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
14 now...and still counting
So many options! Similar to the Basterfield method but some differences...posted the link below


Think I marginally prefer theirs for earlier in the season, mainly as less manipulating. Can still unite after new queen made.
Be interested in what you think to it. Haven’t tried it yet but plan to give it a go.
I wasn't aware of this method. The vertical split is easy especially if you don't have much spare equipment. I listened to a presentation from W. Shaw last winter who said that he was now using this method with success but without re-uniting. Last year I tried re-uniting the full hive after 2 cycle of Ecs being built and it wasn't enough time as they still tried to swarm.

This method works on a single brood set-up. I had a hive on on dble brood with 14 frames of brood preping to swarm in the weekend and had to nuc the queen as I didn't fancy a vertical split with 2 deep on top.
 

jeff33 

Drone Bee
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
1,156
Reaction score
272
Location
Gower, where all the fun happens
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
14 now...and still counting
I must say that beekeepers’ ingenuity in swarm management never ceases to amaze me. I’m quite giddy reading through all these methods and folks’ adaptations of it.
I like to keep things simple. I nuc the queen reactively and Demaree proactively. My beekeeping is quite boring really.
Dani, when you nuc your queen, how many rounds of cells do you destroy in the original hive? I found if I leave 1 cell after removing the queen and they have the means to make more they will do so and swarm. I tend to leave 1 open cell, go back in the hive 4-5 days after to remove all other cells and repeat a last time on day 8 after split. That way there will be only 1 virgin.
 

Erichalfbee 

Super Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Jul 23, 2009
Messages
22,197
Reaction score
3,880
Location
Ceredigion
Hive Type
14x12
Number of Hives
7
Dani, when you nuc your queen, how many rounds of cells do you destroy in the original hive? I found if I leave 1 cell after removing the queen and they have the means to make more they will do so and swarm. I tend to leave 1 open cell, go back in the hive 4-5 days after to remove all other cells and repeat a last time on day 8 after split. That way there will be only 1 virgin.
I go back 7 days after leaving an open cell.
Seems to work for me
 

elainemary 

Field Bee
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Jun 1, 2019
Messages
612
Reaction score
644
Location
Yorkshire
Hive Type
wbc
Number of Hives
10
I must say that beekeepers’ ingenuity in swarm management never ceases to amaze me. I’m quite giddy reading through all these methods and folks’ adaptations of it.
I like to keep things simple. I nuc the queen reactively and Demaree proactively. My beekeeping is quite boring really.
Think the methods you use are v solid & I’m slowly migrating that way. Probably as I’m still in the flush of beekeeping ‘youth’ that I dabble with different techniques, for interest and in the quest to learn and gain experience. You’ve probably been on a similar journey and now settled on the techniques that work best for you.
 

elainemary 

Field Bee
BeeKeeping Supporter
Joined
Jun 1, 2019
Messages
612
Reaction score
644
Location
Yorkshire
Hive Type
wbc
Number of Hives
10
I wasn't aware of this method. The vertical split is easy especially if you don't have much spare equipment. I listened to a presentation from W. Shaw last winter who said that he was now using this method with success but without re-uniting. Last year I tried re-uniting the full hive after 2 cycle of Ecs being built and it wasn't enough time as they still tried to swarm.

This method works on a single brood set-up. I had a hive on on dble brood with 14 frames of brood preping to swarm in the weekend and had to nuc the queen as I didn't fancy a vertical split with 2 deep on top.
I’m guessing (don’t know for sure) you could still do this on double brood as the principle is to separate the flying bees from the queen. So by turning the entrance around and leaving the queen in the bottom and perhaps giving her the lions share of sealed brood (so space when emerge). Then flying bees go to top box with unsealed brood and genetic material to make a new queen.

Have a look at their video on vertical splits (costs £3 to watch as part of a series last summer). I think it’s less complicated than Wally shaws method


Ken said on the video it’s a result of many versions of swarm control that they’ve tried and now settled on as the most reliable and easy to do, over the years.
I challenged this with a question why it was better / simpler than putting the queen into a Nuc? As Dani also points out. One point he made, which I think is v valid, is when you put the queen into a Nuc you have to put the her or the bees back into a brood box anyway to reunite. So why not just keep them all together in a vertical split. Plus easier to unite afterwards. Don’t even need to use newspaper as they keep the common hive odour together.
 

GuyNir 

Field Bee
Joined
Sep 17, 2017
Messages
903
Reaction score
342
Location
Dumfries and Galloway
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
10-15
I’m the same as Dani. Differentiating between proactive and reactive and sticking with simple, proven methods.
 

Latest posts

Top